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Jack R. Ellis

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29.10.2007, 17:48
 

No More "Oldies"! (Miscellaneous)

A minor miracle -- The "links" pages for this website no longer has entries
for the obsolete UDMA/UDMA2, XDMA/XCDROM or QHIMEM/QDMA/QCDROM drivers, and
only a "link" to the current XMGR and UIDE drivers is shown!

Now, only the "underlining" through my name for SHSUCDX needs to be removed
as SHCDX33C has always been under continuous support by Johnson Lam and me.

XMGR and SHCDX33C are essentially done. No plan now, to give UIDE delayed
"Write Back" output (MANY more DOS "hooks" needed!), nor to put its binary-
search table in XMS (likely too slow, and few desire over a 255-MB cache!).
Better if UIDE "hooks" only Int 13h and thus remains "generic" and FAST!

So, UIDE is essentially done as well. When "future interfaces" like ADMA/
AHCI become more available on mainboards, they can then be added into UIDE.
Such changes are MUCH easier, as they now go in only ONE integrated driver.

Laaca(R)

Homepage

Czech republic,
29.10.2007, 19:02

@ Jack R. Ellis

No More "Oldies"!

Yes, I also think that write caching is not needed in this moment. We all know how dangerous it can be. F.e. combination of driver Hyperdsk.exe and (beautiful) game Furry of the furies always resulted in damage of game files :crying:
Anyway - there is a huge room for improvements in FreeDOS kernel for it.

But I see two points which could be improved id UIDE:
1) option for disabling the CD/DVD module
why: it doesn't work with my LiteOn DVD drive if it contains a DVD disc. (for CD discs is it OK)
(now I have a different DVD drive, so it is not so important for me... ...And this issue is not specific only for UIDE - many others CD/DVD drivers has problems with LiteOn)

2) add option for creating cache above 4MB of memory.
why: SB emulation drivers use this area (under 4MB boundary). When is it already occupied by UIDE (UIDE is loaded in config.sys and SB in autoexec.bat or "on demand"), SB emulation will not start.

---
DOS-u-akbar!

rr(R)

Homepage E-mail

Berlin, Germany,
29.10.2007, 20:32

@ Jack R. Ellis

No More "Oldies"!

> A minor miracle -- The "links" pages for this website no longer has entries
> for the obsolete UDMA/UDMA2, XDMA/XCDROM or QHIMEM/QDMA/QCDROM drivers, and
> only a "link" to the current XMGR and UIDE drivers is shown!

I removed those URLs to avoid confusion for not-so-regulars. But why do you call it miracle?

> Now, only the "underlining" through my name for SHSUCDX needs to be removed
> as SHCDX33C has always been under continuous support by Johnson Lam and me.

Why did you not write a PM, but instead post to "Announce" (moved to "Miscellaneous" now)? Just wondering... Anyway, I fixed that.

Jack

29.10.2007, 22:29

@ Laaca

Your Problems.

> Yes, I also think that write caching is not needed in this moment. We all
> know how dangerous it can be. F.e. combination of driver Hyperdsk.exe and
> (beautiful) game Furry of the furies always resulted in damage of game
> files.

UIDE uses "Write Through" caching. Output data is cached but is written to
disk immediately, saving MUCH logic. Subsequent reads of the same data are
from cache (XMS memory), not from the disk, for faster speed. "Write Back"
caching is different. Writes are delayed in case the same disk sectors are
updated again quickly, as with databases, etc. This does save time. But,
it is VERY complex and RISKY, as you've noted! UIDE shall remain "simple"!

> Anyway - there is a huge room for improvements in FreeDOS kernel for it.

I agree. All other DOS kernels but ROM-DOS (bad XMS/EMS drivers!) do allow
UIDE to put its cache logic and binary-search tables in the HMA. This lets
UIDE reside in only 1.75K of upper-memory. FreeDOS does NOT permit any HMA
usage by drivers loaded through the CONFIG.SYS file. They should fix this.

> But I see two points which could be improved in UIDE:
> 1) Option for disabling the CD/DVD module. Why: it doesn't work with my
> LiteOn DVD drive if it contains a DVD disc. (for CD discs is it OK)
> Now I have a different DVD drive, so it is not so important for me ...
> ...And this issue is not specific only for UIDE - many others CD/DVD
> drivers has problems with LiteOn.

I agree. LiteOn is known as an "El Cheapo" brand, with MANY problems! So
I will not put more code in UIDE "only for them". Their problem, not mine.

> 2) add option for creating cache above 4MB of memory. Why: SB emulation
> drivers use this area (under 4MB boundary). When is it already occupied
> by UIDE (UIDE loaded by config.sys, SB by autoexec.bat or "on-demand") SB
> emulation will not start.

If SB drivers demand memory below 4-MB, can you not load them before UIDE in
CONFIG.SYS, even if "DEVLOAD" or similar must do such loading?? I had such
a scheme in QCACHE but removed it from UDMA/UIDE, since it required "playing
games" with the XMS driver! UIDE just asks for one block of XMS memory, to
remain SAFE with whatever XMS driver is used. I dare NOT "trust" them all!

lucho

30.10.2007, 12:05

@ rr

No More "Oldies"! (RxDOS purged from IBIBLIO too)

Jim Hall carried out a similar campaign, purging all the old FreeDOS distributions, but he deleted the RxDOS files from IBIBLIO too, although RxDOS has nothing to do with FreeDOS, as they didn't accept it as their kernel. So one of your links to RxDOS no longer works :-(

Steve(R)

Homepage E-mail

US,
30.10.2007, 13:22

@ lucho

No More "Oldies"! (RxDOS purged from IBIBLIO too)

> Jim Hall carried out a similar campaign, purging all the old FreeDOS
> distributions, but he deleted the RxDOS files from IBIBLIO too, although
> RxDOS has nothing to do with FreeDOS, as they didn't accept it as their
> kernel. So one of your
> links
> to RxDOS no longer works :-(

The link that rugxolo posted is still good - grab the files while you can.
http://ftp.uni-bayreuth.de/pc/freedos/unofficial/rxdos.old/
or
ftp://ftp.uni-bayreuth.de/pc/freedos/unofficial/rxdos.old/

Jack

30.10.2007, 22:52

@ Jack R. Ellis

New UIDE Coming.

Re: Laaca's comment about disabling CD/DVD drives, today I sent an updated
UIDE to Johnson, Lucho and others for tests. UIDE now accepts /N1 for no
hard-disks and /N2 for no CD/DVD drives. Meant for diagnostics, but they
could be used in other "special cases" as well.

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
31.10.2007, 00:51

@ Jack

New UIDE Coming.

> Re: Laaca's comment about disabling CD/DVD drives, today I sent an updated
> UIDE to Johnson, Lucho and others for tests. UIDE now accepts /N1 for
> no hard-disks and /N2 for no CD/DVD drives. Meant for diagnostics, but
> they could be used in other "special cases" as well.

Good, thanks! This is indeed useful.

rr(R)

Homepage E-mail

Berlin, Germany,
31.10.2007, 21:51

@ lucho

No More "Oldies"! (RxDOS purged from IBIBLIO too)

> kernel. So one of your
> links
> to RxDOS no longer works :-(

Now fixed. :-)

Steve(R)

Homepage E-mail

US,
31.10.2007, 22:57

@ rr

No More "Oldies"! (RxDOS purged from IBIBLIO too)

I searched all the FreeDOS mirrors that I know about, and found RxDOS still at these:

Australia
ftp://ftp.planetmirror.com/pub/freedos/files/distributions/unofficial/rxdos.old/

Estonia
http://freedos.pri.ee/files/distributions/rxdos/

Germany
ftp://ftp.uni-bayreuth.de/pc/freedos/unofficial/rxdos.old/
http://ftp.uni-bayreuth.de/pc/freedos/unofficial/rxdos.old/

Sweden
http://freedos.wermlandsdata.com/files/distributions/rxdos/

US
http://freedos.bbnx.net/files/distributions/unofficial/rxdos.old/

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
01.11.2007, 02:57

@ lucho

No More "Oldies"! (RxDOS purged from IBIBLIO too)

> Jim Hall carried out a similar campaign, purging all the old FreeDOS
> distributions, but he deleted the RxDOS files from IBIBLIO too, although
> RxDOS has nothing to do with FreeDOS, as they didn't accept it as their
> kernel. So one of your
> links
> to RxDOS no longer works :-(

Apparently some people are unintentionally downloading older FreeDOS distros from online. Jim recently said someone contacted him about an old version (beta5 ?!), so that prompted him to remove any older, buggier distros from online in order to keep people up-to-date. I mean, anybody here really prefer beta 8 over 1.0++?? Anyways, read his news item about it here.

lucho

01.11.2007, 08:21

@ Steve

No More "Oldies"! (RxDOS purged from IBIBLIO too)

> I searched all the FreeDOS mirrors that I know about, and found RxDOS still at these:

Thanks!
But I wonder whether / when they will follow Jim Hall and, "updating" their mirrors, delete the same directories that he deleted, including RxDOS...

Steve(R)

Homepage E-mail

US,
02.11.2007, 00:02

@ lucho

No More "Oldies"! (RxDOS purged from IBIBLIO too)

> > I searched all the FreeDOS mirrors that I know about, and found RxDOS
> still at these:
>
> Thanks!

You're welcome.

> But I wonder whether / when they will follow Jim Hall and, "updating"
> their mirrors, delete the same directories that he deleted, including
> RxDOS...

A riddle, to be sure, but I have a guess: For some time to come, there will be at least one site administrator who doesn't keep up with the orders from the central committee.

lucho

05.11.2007, 17:51

@ Steve

No More "Oldies"! (RxDOS purged from IBIBLIO too)

> A riddle, to be sure, but I have a guess: For some time to come, there
> will be at least one site administrator who doesn't keep up with the
> orders from the central committee.

It depends on whether they do automatic mirror synchronisation ("rsync") or do things "by hand". To be fair, Jim Hall did warn about his intentions and nobody on their list objected (see this message from him). If I had noticed that RxDOS was in the list, I'd write him and object. But now it's too late :-(

rr(R)

Homepage E-mail

Berlin, Germany,
05.11.2007, 21:36

@ lucho

No More "Oldies"! (RxDOS purged from IBIBLIO too)

> message from him). If I had noticed that RxDOS was in the list, I'd write
> him and object. But now it's too late :-(

Same here, but I already wrote Jim to put RxDOS back online. :-) We'll see...

I also got a reply from Mike Podanoffsky (mikeATsharecubeDOTcom), who didn't work on RxDOS for several years:
I welcome the discussion on this board on the merits of DOS and the role of RxDOS. Many of you know that RxDOS was described in a book available from Amazon.com. It will give you a very detailed look at DOS in general and RxDOS in particular. While I am sure that RxDOS has bugs, it did go through a fairly thorough DOS API testing suite. One point of concern is MASM 5.10. I welcome both further testing and ports to open source Assemblers like NASM.

He "promised" to mirror ftp.uni-bayreuth.de files at SourceForge.net soon.

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
06.11.2007, 06:20

@ lucho

No More "Oldies"! (IBIBLIO purged) -- ODIN 2005 needed

> It depends on whether they do automatic mirror synchronisation ("rsync")
> or do things "by hand". To be fair, Jim Hall did warn about his intentions
> and nobody on their list objected (see
> this
> message from him). If I had noticed that RxDOS was in the list, I'd write
> him and object. But now it's too late :-(

Strange that the ODIN distros are only the really old ones. Unless I'm blind or something, I don't see ODIN 2005 (based upon beta9r2) on there at all!

And actually, they should also have Joris' 8086 disk and Eric's three-disk distro from 1.0 which it was based upon. (Gah, if only I had more time and energy, I'd have collected sources for my distro too. But it takes too dang long, very tedious.)

EDIT: I also need to upload some versions to iBiblio for Jim Hall to replace some outdated stuff. Man, some of that stuff is really old, and I know people don't know any better who download it. :-/

---
Know your limits.h

lucho

06.11.2007, 12:42

@ rr

RxDOS

> I also got a reply from Mike Podanoffsky (mikeATsharecubeDOTcom), who
> didn't work on RxDOS for several years:

Thank you and him!

> I welcome the discussion on this board on the merits of DOS and the
> role of RxDOS. Many of you know that RxDOS was described in a
> book available from Amazon.com. It will give you a very detailed look at
> DOS in general and RxDOS in particular. While I am sure that RxDOS has
> bugs, it did go through a fairly thorough DOS API testing suite. One point
> of concern is MASM 5.10. I welcome both further testing and ports to open
> source Assemblers like NASM.


Actually, the MASM 5.10 requirement is a "blessing in disguise", because this way some known open source purists will be kept out of RxDOS development ;-)

But the book is a problem. There are only 3 pcs. left, and the price plus the shipping isn't affordable by most people in poor countries (myself included).

> He "promised" to mirror ftp.uni-bayreuth.de files at SourceForge.net soon.

Good.

rr(R)

Homepage E-mail

Berlin, Germany,
06.11.2007, 13:37

@ lucho

RxDOS

> But the book is a problem. There are only 3 pcs. left, and the price plus
> the shipping isn't affordable by most people in poor countries (myself
> included).

A used book in "very good" condition is available for only $3.46. But S&H to Europe will be expensive. ;-) Amazon.de has one for "only" EUR 21,23.

Before you ask: I don't have that book and don't know, if it's worth the money.

rr(R)

Homepage E-mail

Berlin, Germany,
06.11.2007, 13:40

@ Rugxulo

No More "Oldies"! (IBIBLIO purged) -- ODIN 2005 needed

> Eric's
> three-disk distro from 1.0 which it was based upon. (Gah, if only I

This link gives error 404 ("not found").

lucho

06.11.2007, 13:58

@ rr

The Book "Dissecting DOS"

> A used book in "very good" condition is available for only $3.46. But S&H
> to Europe will be expensive. :-( Amazon.de has one for "only" EUR 21,23.

Shipping the book from North America to Europe would be at least $20. Add the cost of issuing a dollar cheque and the cost of sending it by post and the total cost easily becomes more than an order of magnitude higher than those $3.46! :-(

Steve(R)

Homepage E-mail

US,
06.11.2007, 18:13

@ Rugxulo

No More "Oldies"! (IBIBLIO purged) -- ODIN 2005 needed

> Strange that the ODIN distros are only the really old ones. Unless I'm
> blind or something, I don't see ODIN
> 2005 (based upon beta9r2) on there at all!

Is this it?
http://www.os2warp.org/odin/2005/index.html

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
06.11.2007, 19:33

@ Steve

No More "Oldies"! (IBIBLIO purged) -- ODIN 2005 needed

> Is this it?
> http://www.os2warp.org/odin/2005/index.html

No, that's some Windows (32-bit?) emulation for OS/2. Here, I'm refering to Steve Nikolas' "One Disk INstaller".

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
06.11.2007, 19:34

@ rr

No More "Oldies"! (IBIBLIO purged) -- ODIN 2005 needed

> This link gives error 404 ("not found").

Okay, must be due to Eric's impending site going down. Oh well. Fixed links and mirrored here: http://rugxulo.googlepages.com/threediskettes-freedos10.zip

Steve(R)

Homepage E-mail

US,
06.11.2007, 20:41

@ Rugxulo

No More "Oldies"! (IBIBLIO purged) -- ODIN 2005 needed

How about these:

ftp://ftp.ens-cachan.fr/mirror/FreeDOS/files/distributions/1disk/
or
http://webb.ens-cachan.fr/ftp/mirror/FreeDOS/files/distributions/1disk/

http://odin.fdos.org/odin2005/

rr(R)

Homepage E-mail

Berlin, Germany,
06.11.2007, 21:29

@ Steve

No More "Oldies"! (IBIBLIO purged) -- ODIN 2005 needed

> http://odin.fdos.org/odin2005/

That's what Rugxulo already wrote in No More "Oldies"! (IBIBLIO purged) -- ODIN 2005 needed!

Steve(R)

Homepage E-mail

US,
06.11.2007, 21:55

@ rr

No More "Oldies"! (IBIBLIO purged) -- ODIN 2005 needed

> > http://odin.fdos.org/odin2005/
>
> That's what Rugxulo already wrote in No More "Oldies"! (IBIBLIO
> purged) -- ODIN 2005 needed!

Well, there it is, unpurged.

rr(R)

Homepage E-mail

Berlin, Germany,
13.11.2007, 17:33

@ rr

No More "Oldies"! (RxDOS purged from IBIBLIO too)

> Same here, but I already wrote Jim to put RxDOS back online. :-) We'll
> see...

RxDOS is back at ibiblio.org. :-) Thanks Jim!

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