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Steve(R)

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US,
24.07.2007, 08:18
 

IBM PC DOS, free downloads (Announce)

If anyone is looking for another test bed...

IBM PC DOS 7 (1994) - Installation diskettes + loading util + docfile. ~9MB total, at
ftp://os2ports.com/pub/dos/pcdos/
or
http://os2ports.com/ftp/pub/dos/pcdos/

IBM PC DOS 2000 (1998) - 2 ISO files
1) Contains images of installation diskettes + loading util.
2) Contains individual files, to be written to installer CD. Looks like HD installation can be in English or in Korean (DOS/V) [Comes from IBM Korea, has docs & messages in English & Korean].
~15MB each, at ftp://ftp.boulder.ibm.com/software/dos/

PC DOS 7 Technical Update (1995). IBM Redbook for programmers, free downloads in PDF & HTML. Real paper version is available for $ (noted for information purposes only).
http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/gg244459.html

rr(R)

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Berlin, Germany,
24.07.2007, 09:15

@ Steve

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> IBM PC DOS 7 (1994) - Installation diskettes + loading util + docfile.

[snip]

> IBM PC DOS 2000 (1998) - 2 ISO files

Thanks! But "freely" downloadable does not mean it's legal to use it! Did you see any license file?

> PC DOS 7 Technical Update (1995). IBM Redbook for programmers, free

I already point to it at my Links page. ;-)

Steve(R)

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US,
24.07.2007, 12:56

@ rr

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> > IBM PC DOS 7 (1994) - Installation diskettes + loading util + docfile.
>
> [snip]
>
> > IBM PC DOS 2000 (1998) - 2 ISO files
>
> Thanks! But "freely" downloadable does not mean it's legal to use
> it! Did you see any license file?
>
> > PC DOS 7 Technical Update (1995). IBM Redbook for programmers, free
>
> I already point to it at my Links page. ;-)

There are no recent/revised license docs. But what else could it mean when IBM itself posts files? It does not normally do that when license restrictions apply, rather when files are now free (or useless).

rr(R)

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Berlin, Germany,
24.07.2007, 13:45

@ Steve

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> There are no recent/revised license docs. But what else could it mean when
> IBM itself posts files?

It means nothing or are unlocked cars at your street free (in the meaning of law) to take? ;-)

Please read 10 Big Myths about copyright explained for some nice facts! :-)

Japheth(R)

Homepage

Germany (South),
24.07.2007, 15:23

@ rr

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> > There are no recent/revised license docs. But what else could it mean
> when
> > IBM itself posts files?
>
> It means nothing or are unlocked cars at your street free (in the meaning
> of law) to take? ;-)

A rather self-restrictive view IMO. If a copyright holder deliberately makes some files available to the public and doesn't include a text describing license conditions, it is safe to assume that the files are free for personal use (something which you cannot assume if you find an unlocked car :)). It's the same as for pictures, texts and other "intellectual property".

---
MS-DOS forever!

rr(R)

Homepage E-mail

Berlin, Germany,
24.07.2007, 15:36

@ Japheth

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> A rather self-restrictive view IMO. If a copyright holder deliberately
> makes some files available to the public and doesn't include a text
> describing license conditions, it is safe to assume that the files are

No. It's never save to assume anything regarding law.

> free for personal use (something which you cannot assume if you find an
> unlocked car :)).

What's the difference? Law does not mean common sense.

Japheth(R)

Homepage

Germany (South),
24.07.2007, 17:38

@ rr

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> > free for personal use (something which you cannot assume if you find an
> > unlocked car :)).
>
> What's the difference? Law does not mean common sense.

There is an evident difference: by making something publicly available on the net the owner has actively done something, thus expressing that he doesn't mind others to use his software. This "action" is lacking in the "unlocked car" case.

---
MS-DOS forever!

rr(R)

Homepage E-mail

Berlin, Germany,
24.07.2007, 17:58

@ Japheth

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> There is an evident difference: by making something publicly available on
> the net the owner has actively done something, thus expressing that he
> doesn't mind others to use his software. This "action" is lacking in the
> "unlocked car" case.

I agree to this difference, but not to the rest. ;-)

I think, it's time to close this thread. We both expressed our contradicting opinions and further discussion will not make it "better". :-)

Japheth(R)

Homepage

Germany (South),
24.07.2007, 18:24

@ rr

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> I think, it's time to close this thread. We both expressed our
> contradicting opinions and further discussion will not make it "better".
> :-)

I don't think that a thread should be "closed" just because 2 members have different opinions. After all, this is sort of a "discussion" forum, not a "little kingdom" like so many other places, and a "discussion" without different opinions is a strange thing. And besides we two there might be other members/guests who have to say something on this topic.

---
MS-DOS forever!

Steve(R)

Homepage E-mail

US,
24.07.2007, 19:08

@ rr

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> > There is an evident difference: by making something publicly available
> > on the net the owner has actively done something, thus expressing that
> > he doesn't mind others to use his software. This "action" is lacking in
> > the "unlocked car" case.
>
> I agree to this difference, but not to the rest. ;-)

Last note from me: Japheth's comments are consistent with IBM's practices. It _does_ typically lock or conceal files that require payment, or agreement to special conditions of use. I regularly go through the process. I think this is therefore a case where absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
25.07.2007, 00:45

@ Steve

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> If anyone is looking for another test bed...
>
> IBM PC DOS 7 (1994) - Installation diskettes + loading util + docfile.
> ~9MB total

Okay, this probably can't be legal. Here's why:

ftp://os2ports.com/pub/dos/ has other stuff (MS-DOS: "/msdos/DOS6.22.iso", WIN98SE: "/msdos/Win98SE.iso", DR-DOS: "drdos/DR-DOS.703/dr703.exe"), which you know is not free. In fact, the whole /dos/ section of that site is very very outdated (DJGPP 2.02, NANSI 0.34, Arachne 1.66, 4DOS 7.01, Info-Zip's Zip 2.2 and Unzip 5.40, FreeDOS beta 6 ... sheesh!!). And most of the links on the front www page didn't work. I don't think IBM maintains that site (else they suck).

However, IBM no longer, AFAIK, has a link anywhere trying to sell PC-DOS (though Buy.com offers the "complete"(?) PC DOS 2000, and Amazon.com has upgrades, at least). In fact, I do know of another place where PC-DOS can be (supposedly) downloaded, but I haven't really investigated the licensing (which always hampers everything, sadly).

http://johnson.tmfc.net/dos/lucho.html

> (quoting READTHIS.TXT from Lucho's triple-boot DOS floppy)
>
> PC-DOS 7.1 is present in the IBM ServerGuide Scripting Toolkit
> (MIGR-53564) which can freely be downloaded, starting at
> http://www.ibm.com/systems/management/sgstk.html.

Lucho does not share my preferences, and since I was going to do so anyways, I started my own floppy distro (using FreeDOS, the only really "free" GPL'd DOS). And with Eric Auer's massive help (hey, that guy personifies FreeDOS every bit as much as Jim Hall), I even made it fairly decent / useful, IMO (and now completely open source first two disks, #3 w/ closed src junk isn't quite finished yet).

http://www.geocities.com/snoopimeanie/freedos.htm

(BTW, bandwidth restrictions at Geocities stink; I need to migrate to Google Pages. If it whines, just try again at the top of the hour.)

Face it, I like all DOSes as much as the next guy (although I haven't tried 'em all), but I don't really need PC-DOS. It'd be nice to test it for compatibility, but then again, you can't fix their bugs, only your own. FreeDOS handles FAT32 just as well as PC-DOS supposedly does and is still developed. If you want Rexx, there's always Regina Rexx or Brexx.

Besides, here are all the "no cost" DOSes I know of: RxDOS (wimpy but free w/ src), Datalight ROM DOS (free for private use), or FreeDOS (GPL, probably your best bet).

DR-DOS 7.03 is $35 (which I bought), PTS-DOS is shareware (never tried), and I'm pretty sure LZ-DOS is just an unofficial, ripped, compressed MS-DOS 7.x kernel. As far as OpenDOS is concerned, I think they must've (... potential libel deleted by author ...) because that never made any sense, at least in what it turned out to be, why they did it in the first place, and why they kept becoming different companies that seemed to do nothing useful. I never understood the licensing (does anyone??), so I don't worry with it.

---
Know your limits.h

rr(R)

Homepage E-mail

Berlin, Germany,
25.07.2007, 12:47

@ Japheth

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> > I think, it's time to close this thread. We both expressed our
> > contradicting opinions and further discussion will not make it
> "better".
> > :-)
>
> I don't think that a thread should be "closed" just because 2 members have
> different opinions.

Seems like a misunderstanding: I did not want to close (`lock') this thread to prevent you or others from posting. But from my point of view all has been said already and I will no longer participate in this discussion. OK? :-)

Steve(R)

Homepage E-mail

US,
25.07.2007, 13:50

@ Rugxulo

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> > If anyone is looking for another test bed...
> >
> > IBM PC DOS 7 (1994) - Installation diskettes + loading util + docfile.
> > ~9MB total
>
> Okay, this probably can't be legal. Here's why:
>
> ftp://os2ports.com/pub/dos/ has other stuff [snipped] I don't think IBM
> maintains that site (else they suck).

os2ports is not an IBM site.

> However, IBM no longer, AFAIK, has a link anywhere trying to sell PC-DOS

IBM officially stopped selling it last year. All marketing pages have been killed.

> http://johnson.tmfc.net/dos/lucho.html

Does Lucho have it up anywhere else? Unfortunately Johnson is a pirate: He has posted his own clearly illegal "MS-DOS 7" boot disk, and Lucho is not served well by the association.

> (BTW, bandwidth restrictions at Geocities stink; I need to migrate to
> Google Pages. If it whines, just try again at the top of the hour.)

Try Yahoo/Geocities sites outside the US. My (not systematically tested) impression is that the bandwidth situation is better. Plus they have free ftp upload - very convenient.

> FreeDOS handles FAT32 just as well as PC-DOS supposedly does

PC-DOS remains 16-bit - the v7 was a trick number for what should have been 6.4 or 6.5.

> DR-DOS 7.03 is $35 (which I bought)

From the pirates at DRDOS, Inc. / Devicelogics? They had to withdraw "DR DOS 8.0" because they used FreeDOS code in violation of its license conditions. (Jim Hall posted the story at the FreeOS site).

> As far as OpenDOS is concerned [snipped] I never understood the licensing (does anyone??)

The licensing is complicated, but as AFAIK DR-DOS/OpenDOS 7.01, 7.02 and 7.03 (pre-Devicelogics) are still free, cerainly for private use. Source is free for OpenDOS 7.02. DRDOS, Inc. can't change licensing for an ancestor of its product that it never owned. If they could, Udo Kuhnt would be in a lot of trouble.

usotsuki

E-mail

28.07.2007, 02:31

@ Steve

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> > > There is an evident difference: by making something publicly available
> > > on the net the owner has actively done something, thus expressing
> that
> > > he doesn't mind others to use his software. This "action" is lacking
> in
> > > the "unlocked car" case.
> >
> > I agree to this difference, but not to the rest. ;-)
>
> Last note from me: Japheth's comments are consistent with IBM's practices.
> It _does_ typically lock or conceal files that require payment, or
> agreement to special conditions of use. I regularly go through the
> process. I think this is therefore a case where absence of evidence is
> evidence of absence.

Now if I could only recall where I found the 7.10.0 files on their site... (which I've archived)

lucho

29.07.2007, 21:25

@ Steve

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> Unfortunately Johnson is a pirate

He has not killed or robbed anybody, so he does NOT deserve such qualifications. (You might be mistaking him with Wengier Wu - a big DOS expert whom I also respect very much.)

> > FreeDOS handles FAT32 just as well as PC-DOS supposedly does

Beware of bugs, incompatibilities and low speed which plague the FreeDOS kernel.

> PC-DOS remains 16-bit - the v7 was a trick number for what should have been 6.4 or 6.5.

PC DOS 7.1, however, fully supports FAT32 and LBA. Its latest publicly available build is from December 2003 - new enough in my humble opinion. Available from

http://www.ibm.com/systems/management/sgstk.html

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
30.07.2007, 01:57

@ Steve

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> > DR-DOS 7.03 is $35 (which I bought)
>
> From the pirates at DRDOS, Inc. / Devicelogics? They had to withdraw "DR
> DOS 8.0" because they used FreeDOS code in violation of its license
> conditions. (Jim Hall posted the story at the FreeOS site).

I remember hearing about this. However, I bought my 7.03 a while before that happened, and AFAIK, it uses no FreeDOS stuff. I'll admit, that was a bit strange, but whatever, not much I can do about that. (DR-DOS is a pretty good DOS, IMO, even if a bit outdated. However, I think FreeDOS is the future.)

> > As far as OpenDOS is concerned [snipped] I never understood the
> licensing (does anyone??)
>
> The licensing is complicated, but as AFAIK DR-DOS/OpenDOS 7.01, 7.02 and
> 7.03 (pre-Devicelogics) are still free, cerainly for private use. Source
> is free for OpenDOS 7.02. DRDOS, Inc. can't change licensing for an
> ancestor of its product that it never owned. If they could, Udo Kuhnt
> would be in a lot of trouble.

What I've read is debatable (comments from Pat Villani, Japheth, etc), so I'm not totally convinced I understand the nature of the whole "OpenDOS" mess. Yes, of course, Udo does his thing and no one has complained (yet??), but it's still legally murky. (Gotta hate such problems!) This is one clear advantage to FreeDOS ... no such issues. Granted, they have less official support.

But anyways, use whatever you want, they're all good. But still, at least FreeDOS has sources so you can fix and improve it. As far as the other DOSes, they won't be very good in comparison in a few months / years (if not already put to shame). If IBM is so disinterested in PC-DOS, they need to make it clear somehow (and / or maybe send a few developers to help FreeDOS??).

---
Know your limits.h

Steve(R)

Homepage E-mail

US,
30.07.2007, 06:40

@ lucho

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> > Unfortunately Johnson is a pirate
>
> He has not killed or robbed anybody, so he does NOT deserve such
> qualifications.

Well, that's the term in common use.

> (You might be mistaking him with Wengier Wu - a big DOS
> expert whom I also respect very much.)

Johnson has posted Wu's "MS-DOS 7", an unauthorized extraction from Windows.

> > PC-DOS remains 16-bit - the v7 was a trick number for what should have
> been 6.4 or 6.5.
>
> PC DOS 7.1, however, fully supports FAT32 and LBA.

Also NTFS disks - IBM uses it to boot its Rescue and Recovery program for Win2K/XP.

Steve(R)

Homepage E-mail

US,
30.07.2007, 06:56

@ Rugxulo

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> > > As far as OpenDOS is concerned [snipped] I never understood the
> > licensing (does anyone??)
> >
> > The licensing is complicated, but as AFAIK DR-DOS/OpenDOS 7.01, 7.02
> and
> > 7.03 (pre-Devicelogics) are still free, cerainly for private use.
> Source
> > is free for OpenDOS 7.02.

Oops - I should have written 7.01

> > DRDOS, Inc. can't change licensing for an
> > ancestor of its product that it never owned. If they could, Udo Kuhnt
> > would be in a lot of trouble.
>
> What I've read is debatable (comments from Pat Villani, Japheth, etc), so
> I'm not totally convinced I understand the nature of the whole "OpenDOS"
> mess. Yes, of course, Udo does his thing and no one has complained
> (yet??), but it's still legally murky.

Snipped from the OpenDOS 7.01 source license:

* REDISTRIBUTION OF THE SOFTWARE IS PERMITTED FOR NON-COMMERCIAL
PURPOSES provided that the copyright notices, marks and these terms
and conditions in this document are duplicated in all such forms and
that the documentaiton, advertising materials, and other materials
related to such distribution and use acknowledge that the software was
developed by Caldera, Inc.

For the source code license grant, you may:

* modify, translate, compile, disassemble, or create derivative works
based on the Software provided that such modifications are for
non-commercial use and that such modifications are provided back to
Caldera except for those who have obtained the right from Caldera
in writing to retain such modifications; any modification, translation,
compilation, disassembly or derivative work used for commercial gain
requires a seperate license from Caldera;
[End snips]

So it looks to me like Udo is OK, as long as he doesn't charge money for his OS.

lucho

30.07.2007, 21:08

@ Steve

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> Well, that's the term in common use.

"Common" doesn't imply "correct". Please read what the FSF has to say on this:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Piracy

> Also NTFS disks - IBM uses it to boot its Rescue and Recovery program for
> Win2K/XP.

But through a driver or a TSR, not directly. PC-DOS 7.1 kernel isn't much bigger than the one of PC-DOS 7 (2000) so there is no room for such a heavy driver. But it'd be interesting to know what is this driver or TSR they use to access NTFS?!

Japheth(R)

Homepage

Germany (South),
01.08.2007, 06:43

@ Steve

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> The licensing is complicated, but as AFAIK DR-DOS/OpenDOS 7.01, 7.02 and
> 7.03 (pre-Devicelogics) are still free, cerainly for private use.

excerpt from OpenDOS 7.0.1 license.txt:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Caldera grants you a non-exclusive license to use the Software in
source or binary form free of charge if

(a) you are a student, faculty member or staff member {...}

(b) your use of the Software is for the purpose of evaluating
whether to purchase an ongoing license to the Software. The evaluation
period for use by or on behalf of a commercial entity is limited
to 90 days; evaluation use by others is not subject to this 90 day
limit but is still limited to a reasonable period.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

That's not something I would call "free", not even for "private use" ... unless you are a student.

---
MS-DOS forever!

DOS386(R)

02.08.2007, 15:34

@ lucho

IBM PC DOS, "free" downloads , MS-DOS 7.1

> > Unfortunately Johnson is a pirate
>
> He has not killed or robbed anybody, so he does NOT deserve such
> qualifications. (You might be mistaking him with Wengier Wu - a big DOS
> expert

And pirate ...

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

DOS386(R)

02.08.2007, 15:36

@ lucho

IBM PC DOS, free downloads ||| FSF

> "Common" doesn't imply "correct". Please read what the FSF has to say on
> this: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Piracy

I'm aware of this text ... OTOH FSF in NOT the GOD having the right to define absolute truth ... and they prohibited other words as well, including freeware ...

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

Japheth(R)

Homepage

Germany (South),
02.08.2007, 23:11

@ DOS386

IBM PC DOS, "free" downloads , MS-DOS 7.1

> > > Unfortunately Johnson is a pirate
> >
> > He has not killed or robbed anybody, so he does NOT deserve such
> > qualifications. (You might be mistaking him with Wengier Wu - a big DOS
> > expert
>
> And pirate ...

IMO we shouldn't abuse other people in this forum ... especially if they are non-members. This "good guy"/"bad guy" crap should be left for other forums.

---
MS-DOS forever!

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
03.08.2007, 05:13

@ Japheth

IBM PC DOS, free downloads

> > The licensing is complicated, but as AFAIK DR-DOS/OpenDOS 7.01, 7.02 and
> > 7.03 (pre-Devicelogics) are still free, cerainly for private use.
>
> excerpt from OpenDOS 7.0.1 license.txt:
> (snip)
>
> That's not something I would call "free", not even for "private use" ...
> unless you are a student.

Yeah, I know. The other day I looked it up on the OpenDOS mailing list archives at DJ's site and saved a bunch of links (Session Manager in Firefox). So, I'll be mentioning that here (eventually).

Basically, I think they (Caldera) either had different goals at the beginning than later and / or they changed the license after-the-fact. (That would certainly explain the mass confusion about it on the web.)

rr(R)

Homepage E-mail

Berlin, Germany,
03.08.2007, 10:31

@ Japheth

IBM PC DOS, "free" downloads , MS-DOS 7.1

> > And pirate ...
>
> IMO we shouldn't abuse other people in this forum ... especially if they
> are non-members. This "good guy"/"bad guy" crap should be left for other
> forums.

Fully ACK :cool:

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