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Interresting DOS forum in german (Announce)

posted by Rugxulo(R) Homepage, Usono, 13.09.2018, 06:00

> I meant that the universal perception of "difficult" is more the active
> part. But since you had Latin, cases and declensions are not new to you,
> and they are (together with gender) the hardest part.
> Word order and concatenating words is also considered a problem, but that
> is shared with Dutch, so not something that makes German harder than Dutch.

I have no direct urge to learn any further languages (yet), no huge need. It might be fun, though.

What was it I was reading about months ago? Some spaghetti western dudes (long ago) whom somebody made a video game about. (quick Googling) Bud Spencer and Terence Hill: Slaps and Beans. I haven't played it, only saw YouTubers playing it, but apparently they were huge in Europe for their movies. One has passed away by now, but the other is still active on tv (and his mother was German, so he's also fluent in that). IIRC, they were also famous for the ("hilarious" German ??) dubs of their movies. Of course, they weren't nearly as famous over here, which apparently shocks a lot of Europeans when an American says they've never heard of them.

(Sorry for the off-tangent, but it's little trivia like that which piques my interest.)

> Rule of thumb, the bigger the country the lesser the language skills. And
> China and India, while not entirely mono-lingual are mainly so

India is supposedly very multilingual, at least in some major parts (Tamil Nadu?). But I guess you can always find exceptions.

There are of course "English only" advocates here, which I don't necessarily agree with. I agree that we don't really need more fragmentation, for its own sake, but a little courtesy (interoperability?) sometimes helps.

> Note that American as an ex colony is a grade worse, since it doesn't have
> dialects of the same magnitude like e.g. UK English has. Dialects also help
> with language skills.

We have slang, but I swear it gets worse over the Internet, which amplifies (or even reinvents) everything. What you read online or see in movies is an exaggerated (or faux/new/trendy) version.

> The needs are also different. Spanish is much more important in the
> Americas than in Europe

There are certainly many native Spanish speakers, but most of them are in Texas, California, etc. Other parts certainly have many immigrants from various places, but it doesn't make enough of a dent to inspire any direct behavior change or acknowledgement.

> Frisian is Ingvaeonic,

Ah yes, Malmsteen, famous Swedish (now American?) guitarist. :-P j/k

(All of that kind of classification is over my head, sadly.)

> > I heard Dutch is closer and thus easier, certainly easier than German.
> If it is closer, I'd say it is not that much. English barely distinguished
> Dutch and German before the 1500s. Only the founding of the Dutch
> Republic and language centralization due to bible translations made the
> difference pronounced.

You mean Luther's translation or others? Apparently he also had a big influence on Sweden (et al).

> > One teenager on one of the FreeDOS mailing lists (Maarten) said they
> > learn English, German, and Dutch in school. (The Van Halen brothers
> > immigrated as pre-teens and didn't speak English at all.)
> In the NL that is standard. English starting from primary school even.
> German usually from the second class secondary school.
> The share of the Dutch population that can speak some English is pretty
> high. German is less and still declining. I blame cable television (before
> the cable era, people in border areas watched German television

But has the widespread Internet helped or hurt? It probably helped more with English (which many prefer). I'm not denying that the U.S. is fairly populous (big audience) and also influential (movies, music, etc). I guess I have to be a bit cautious not to overhype it (since it's not exactly an absolute authority on anything, even if they think they are, but even they often can't agree amongst themselves).

> Afaik van Halen were of Indo heritage (former Dutch colonial citizens in
> Indonesia)? Maybe they speak some Malay. Or maybe that is a generation to
> late already.

AFAIK, only their mother (Eugenia) was from Indonesia, and she died in 2005. I've never seen much acknowledgement about her (or even the father, Jan, who died in 1986). I'm almost surprised I even know that much, but I'm a nerd, heheh, I like trivia. (I'd be good on Jeopardy.)

> (Linus T and Scandinavian English level)
> Smaller countries, better skills. And while further away (core simple words
> are a little more different), the distance of English to North Germanic is
> still much, much closer that other languages.

Given enough years, anybody can become "native" to any place. Of course that's fairly obvious since it happens all the time. Linus is hardly the first Swede to emigrate here.

> > BTW, British slang is extremely bizarre, and I'll never get used to it.
> Slang and dialects are hard because there often is no formal education for
> them. The only way to learn is exposure.

We'd have to ignore all the useless insults (which are too common), of course, and only focus on practical words. I'm sure there's phrasebooks or videos on it, if looking hard enough.

It just boggles my mind, even after having watched a ton of Britcoms and whatnot, it's still noticeably different in many many ways. It's a true culture shock, and it certainly wouldn't be easy for me to adjust to such a place. (Not impossible but certainly confusing.) There is little in common due to such a vast distance and divergence of history. The pattern of thinking is entirely different.

> Yeah, our king decidedly went in a different direction (Argentinian :-)

Not to get too controversial (let's not), but due to his (rare, potential) Anglican succession, they had to change a few laws because of her. Somewhat strange, but it shouldn't be all that surprising.

> All former Dutch monarchal spouses were German afaik
> (Claus,Bernard,Hendrik,Emma,Sophia). We need to go back to 1840 for Anna
> Pavlovna of Russia to break that trend.

Wasn't the Danish queen half Swedish? Well, who cares, it's all the same (furious uproar ensues!). It's hardly shocking. I'd be more shocked if there wasn't a lot of cross-pollination (or whatever) in Europe.

(BTW, I was somewhat disappointed to hear that Australia has gone a bit crazy with citizenship requirements for its politicians, even contra those with dual British citizenship. It's already impractical that U.S. demands birther rights, but are others really so petty to demand such fake righteousness too?? Bah, politics, always complaining but never truly helping anybody.)

(Xenophobia is dumb, but the only thing worse is when such a buzzword becomes so common as to label most people that unfairly, for fake political purposes, which then defeats the point and waters it all down. The modern outrage culture sucks, always looking for someone to harass.)

> Old Frankish is even worse, since even earlier, you often don't even
> recognize anything as familar:
> Some common simple French words come from it

Does "France" come from "Franks"? Or only loosely? I know it was (part of?) Gaul (Gallic?). Well, after thousands of years, everything is half this and half that anyways, so the answer is probably "yes and no".

BTW, a while back I read a biography of one famous 19th century Frenchwoman from Normandy. The guy said people there look different, which I thought was a bit crass. But wasn't "Norman" similar to "Norseman"? IIRC, William the Conqueror was of so-called "viking" descent. Of course, what little was left 900 years later, if any?? (For instance, Iceland is Germanic, but they are loosely related to Norwegians and Scottish, according to Wikipedia.)

> Dutch(native),German(4y),English(6y). A bit of French(4y), usually enough
> to manage receptions of hotels, restaurants etc, if they are willing to
> listen.

So you've been to France and/or Belgium a lot? (I had a teacher who often vacationed in Belgium in the summers, for no obvious reason. BTW, my first Latin teacher was from France.)

> I wouldn't classify my German as entirely fluent, but I have done German
> tradeshows and spoke German on the floor. I'll probably would need to
> spend some months in Germany to really get a level further.

Immersion would probably help, yes, but nowadays you could probably learn online (or Rosetta Stone, Berlitz, or whatever, maybe even YouTube videos).

> > P.S. I've been listening to a lot of Sleeze Beez on internet radio
> No, but it seems there heyday were the eighties. Slightly too old for me, I
> was a young teenager then, and didn't really go to popconcerts yet, and
> they seem to have only one song that touched the Dutch TOP 40 rankings.

"Too old"? I mean, you're only six years older than I am (according to ancient FPC authors page, I already remembered but double-checked anyways).

I got my first VH CD in '93, and Sammy "left" in '96. So I was very young then too. If I had to learn from the radio, I'd have never become a fan. '90s radio never ever played anything from the '80s. That whole era was basically discarded entirely, for no good reason (maybe they burned out on it from overplaying it?). So certainly I understand if you never heard it on the radio. There are bands that are exceptions to that rule that were still played a lot (e.g. Led Zeppelin), but they were very few.

My point is that, even if uncommon, it's possible to become a fan of a band that isn't (mostly) active anymore. Certainly '87 (for a '73-born dude) is extremely young, but '96 (disbanded) ain't too far-fetched. But hey, even a "small" country like .nl can be "too big" to know every "local" band. I just stumbled upon them by accident on internet radio (which is nowhere near as shallow as local radio, you can halfway pick your own stuff).


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