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more irrelevant trivia (Announce)

posted by marcov(R), 10.10.2018, 12:46

> > The tradional story is that German immigrants mainly went to the
> midwest.
> We still have many immigrants here but maybe not as many as in the old
> days. (I swear there was an Ehlert family at church, but I never spoke to
> them. It's a fairly big parish/school.)

It usually depends on how far you go back. The most recent large waves of Europeans are already 70 years ago (forties, fifties). People that are old enough to remember the homeland are 80+ probably.

> Wasn't modern New York (state) partially founded by the Dutch?

Yes, NYC too, was the hub, but it was traded to the English in the 1600s for Suriname (Dutch Guyana). The position was considered not very defendable, and the plantation system of Suriname were considered more profitable.

> Kirk
> Douglas was born in Amsterdam, NY ... although not Dutch but Belarusian
> descent ... though allegedly speaking Yiddish, which is Germanic!)

Yes, but the German language era stretched till Belarus before WWII.

> Double-checking on Wikipedia, former President Martin Van Buren was born in
> New York and spoke Dutch originally. My aunt is a postal carrier locally,
> and she used to have some Dutch on her route, but I never met them. (They
> were elderly, so I don't know when or why they moved here. Not a lot of
> dairy farms in the big city, but I could be wrong!)

I meant that most people that emigrated after say the forties, mostly went as farmers, usually dairy or mixed. These were typically not refugees and brought money and expertise with them. Simply because land is very expensive in the NL, and also because of (overproduction) regulations. Actually in the nineties a colleague of my father in a chemical plant changed careers and went to Canada to dairy farm. (had farmer parents and in-laws though)

> Right, the military "brats" get around a lot, often marry foreigners, have
> children born on military bases (U.S. soil) and are raised dually
> sometimes. It's fairly common (even if my own family isn't too
> militaristic).

And WWII GI's children.

> > Some of them were major staging areas for troops enroute to Vietnam.
> Back when the draft was mandatory, my uncle was stationed in Germany for a
> few scant years. Though I've never heard the details, never asked him
> (yet?), it obviously wasn't that important so many decades later. (Given
> enough decades and changes, is anything left? West vs. East Germany,
> obviously, that distinction is mostly irrelevant nowadays.)

Short term stationing usually stick to the base facilities more. Longer stationed ones usually integrate more.

> I assume that was during the war in Vietnam (aka, French Indochina?

Yes, late sixties, early seventies.

> The late Andrew Sachs (Manuel from Faulty Towers) wasn't Spanish nor
> British but in fact German originally (probably dual citizen later). Famous
> for its quote, "Don't mention the war!" Years ago, PBS (tv) used to show a
> lot of Brit-coms here.

Do you know the series Allo Allo? If you want English with German (or French) accents and WWII quotes, that is the one to see :_)

> Yes, I mainly meant population. 80 million people where a few dozen move to
> the U.S. isn't very shocking. It's not that far away, but far enough I
> suppose.

For the crowd immediately leaving after post WII (and before), it was pretty permanent. They often went by boat (because airplane was not affordable).

> Highly-populated states (like CA) tend to have quite an ego and believe
> they are superior to others based upon their size. Or maybe I'm just naive
> to be shocked at such hubris, but I guess it's the same old story.

Yup very recognizable and pretty much the same with the heavily populated areas in the West of the NL, and the rest.

> > NL is three quarters of New York state in surface (maybe closer to 80%
> > since it has a slightly larger water surface area), but with 85% of the
> > population. So comparable, but the NY state population is more unevenly
> > distributed.
> For lack of a better word (and I hate buzzwords), NY is very diverse and
> highly-populated as well. Then again, .nl (and .de and .se) all apparently
> have more than their share of immigrants.

10% or so. Sixties/seventies migrant workers from Turkey and Morocco (there were also Yugoslavians, Spanish and Italians, but they mostly fully integrated, so are no longer so easily identifiable as such), and refugees after.

Then there is a contingent "other Dutch". Former Indonesians (very aging since came over in forties, mostly ex-government workers or colonial army), people from Suriname (big wave during independence in 1975) and from the Caribbean islands.

I like to hear the first two categories speak, specially the older generations. They often have had a formal education in Dutch, so they speak grammatically flawless, albeit a bit old-fashioned and formal Dutch, but with a clearly foreign accent. This combination is intuitively a bit conflicting (speaking very correct, and deftly, but with accent), and fun to hear.

Same with Surinamers, the not so old generations. Mostly correct Dutch, since educated in it, but with thick, typical accents.

As somebody who likes dialectal varieties that is a fun bit about new dialects emerging.

> Hey, I like immigrants, I just
> don't like complete chaos. I don't blame immigrants for anything (how can
> I? they don't change/break anything, they have little power, same as me),
> but I swear America is its own religion nowadays, ugh. But even Europe
> isn't a "utopia", most likely, has its own problems (or worse in some
> ways), ugh.

From what I hear the pressure to integrate is less in Europe due to social security benefits and a longer (post-colonial) tradition of political correctness. OTOH migrants that do want to integrate complain that society is more socially closed to them, and that it is harder to integrate that way.

Newer generations seem to mix more freely (helped by the fact that more people with a migration background go to higher education, making that a bit less lily white, and a more natural way of mixing)

> IOW your backyard is probably ten times mine :-P
> Population only, land area doesn't matter. I moreso meant personal
> influence. Not to trivialize smaller countries, esp. since (like I said)
> the U.S. is very divided and not something I worship absolutely. "Your
> backyard" doesn't really apply to me, it's not mine, I don't own or control
> it. I don't even halfway like it (although it hates itself and everyone
> else, mostly, so that's hard to stomach, very toxic attitudes, and sadly I
> don't think EU is totally immune either).

I meant literally "your backyard". Just some fun based on people/km2 statistic.

> > I don't know how the US figure is corrected for lakes and such though.
> >
> > U.S/EU area = +/- 2 (9.8M vs 4.5M sqkm) U.S/EU population = 0.65 (325M
> vs
> > 500<), iow about 3 times denser. But that is going to change in a few
> > months.
> Why, because of Brexit?

Yup. EU population decrease by 10%.

> Clearly you have a different view than I do.

Well, it was more a statistic than a view, but I have a canned brexit opinion:

Brexit is IMHO a democratic failure. Yes it was a vote, but the question was too abstract. Which can be seen very clearly in UK politics, the brexit vote (which is basically a simplistic yes/no polluted by an awful xenophobic campaigning) is used a mandate for just about anything relating to foreign politics and/or the economic future of the UK.

In the beginning I hoped it would be turned around, but nowadays I think a full break (with some arrangements to structure that) is better. Too much closed doors in-transparent wrangling and weak compromises otherwise.

It is a pity that politics wasted two years that could be spend on that structuring though.

> I guess Europe is (mostly?) more chaotic than U.S.?

Strange, here the sentiment is generally the other way around. But no, I don't think Western Europe is that different.

Some Mediterranean countries are still reeling from the economic crisis though (high unemployment, specially for youth). Eastern Europe is different though, socio-economically it is still recovering, and the crisis didn't help.


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