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Misha(R)

E-mail

RU,
27.06.2010, 00:36
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers) (Users)

Hi People!

First of all, sorry if this is not the right place to write about that.

I have installed Freedos (kernel 2036) on my netbook (Not without troubles i can say).
Of course, first of all I began to launch my favourite games.
So Duke3d (thats my favourite) runs without problems, and thats probably it is something dos4gw, and doesnt need memory managers. Also some very old games like f.e. Tower Toppler ran ok only if i disabled HIMEM driver, otherwise it told me smtng like "Invalid executable format".
The game Tyrian refuse to run at all, giving runtime error :-( . And the game is cool.

About my comp: HP Compaq Mini 311 (Intel 945 mobo, 1 Gb memory )
About dos config: nothing except himem driver.
I use HIMEMX.EXE, and at boot it says "UMB's unavailable" ,
HIMEM.EXE also works but without that message.
MEM.EXE reports me my 1gb free memory. Without himem loaded, it shows that 1Gb is used! Also it doesn't show any video memory, which must be part of system memory (I'm not sure it should thou).

Ok, so what about EMS? I tried emm386.exe, Jemm.exe both and my system just crashes, so i stopped experimenting with that.
I remember, in ms-dos i used qemm.exe with a lot of line parameters.

Playing Duke is not the reason why i decided to go dos, of course :-D
I want to refresh my programming knowledge now, So I need some advice on how to setup DOS properly to use it with openWatcom and write some graphical apps (i don't think i will ever go further 640x480x256 mode). Can someone recommend other DOSes?

PS: I describe my skills like something between user and programmer, so please no too much technical abbreviations.

Misha

Arjay(R)

27.06.2010, 01:04
(edited by Arjay, 27.06.2010, 01:14)

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> Hi People!
Hi Misha,
Welcome always nice to see a new poster!

> So Duke3d (thats my favourite) runs without problems, and thats probably it
> is something dos4gw, and doesnt need memory managers.
DOS4GW is a DOS extender - basically it acts as a memory manager and does other things!

> Also some very old games like f.e. Tower Toppler ran ok only if i
> disabled HIMEM driver, otherwise it told me smtng like "Invalid executable format".
Ok. I wasn't that familiar with this game, so I looked it up on Mobygames: Tower Toppler and can see it came out in 1988. HIMEM came out in 1989, so in other words the game predates HIMEM and thus wouldn't have known anything about it. Knowing the games as this time it would have been doing even more "low level" things, so to be honest I'm not surprised it doesn't like HIMEM.
So I guess you know the answer for this game: don't run it with himem ;)

> The game Tyrian refuse to run at all, giving runtime error :-( .
Ok. In English this means your computer is too fast to run the game which was written in the Turbo Pascal programming language. You need a program called TPPATCH. For a download link and some information on how to use it please see this earlier post by myself. If you get stuck just reply here.

> And the game is cool.
:)

> Also it doesn't show any video memory, which must be part of
> system memory (I'm not sure it should thou).
Without going technical. For historical reasons some video memory appears as part system memory but "only a small amount". Modern computers however have a lot of video memory which MEM doesn't display information or even know about.

> Ok, so what about EMS? I tried emm386.exe, Jemm.exe both and my system just
> crashes, so i stopped experimenting with that.
EMM386 certainly always slowed computer games down, indeed personally I have always avoided EMS where possible (for historical reasons). Still I would suggest using JEMM not EMM386.

> I remember, in ms-dos i used qemm.exe with a lot of line parameters.
QEMM was ok. Think of JEMM as being the next evolution of QEMM. It's very good, flexible and importantly is written by a very good programmer, Japheth.

> Playing Duke is not the reason why i decided to go dos, of course :-D
Good :) Excellent game. Looking forward to DNF? Hopefully one day ;)

> I want to refresh my programming knowledge now, So I need some advice on
> how to setup DOS properly to use it with openWatcom and write some
> graphical apps (i don't think i will ever go further 640x480x256 mode).

> Can someone recommend other DOSes?
There are many options: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_x86_DOS_operating_systems

Personally I suggest having a read through this forum, have a think about what you want to do and follow the links above to read up on each one a bit, then once you've done that I would ask questions re which is best for what.

> PS: I describe my skills like something between user and programmer, so
You'll fit in fine. Really good to see someone new and glad to hear that you are also interested in getting involved with DOS programming again - great !

> please no too much technical abbreviations.
Hopefully I've avoided using any.... unless you class DNF as one? :)

Arjay(R)

27.06.2010, 01:21

@ Arjay
 

Direct download link to TPPATCH in common ZIP file format

> > The game Tyrian refuse to run at all, giving runtime error :-( .
> Ok. In English this means your computer is too fast to run the game which
> was written in the Turbo Pascal programming language. You need a program
> called TPPATCH.

Here is a direct download link to TPPATCH in the common ZIP file format:
ftp://ftp.uwasa.fi/pc/turbopa7/tppatch.zip

Misha(R)

E-mail

RU,
28.06.2010, 03:01

@ Arjay
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> > Hi People!
> Hi Misha,
> Welcome always nice to see a new poster!
>
Hello, thanks!

> > The game Tyrian refuse to run at all, giving runtime error :-( .
> Ok. In English this means your computer is too fast to run the game which
> was written in the Turbo Pascal programming language. You need a program
> called TPPATCH. For a download link and some information on how to use it
> please see
> this earlier post by myself. If you get stuck just reply here.

I will try that and what others advised, this game is worth it.

>
> > Playing Duke is not the reason why i decided to go dos, of course :-D
> Good :) Excellent game.
> Looking forward to
> DNF? Hopefully one day ;)
Yes, i remember the buzz about it, and even first screenshots with 'angular' duke model.
I play xDuke port on my winXP machine mainly, it is nearly 100% same old duke but running whole in memory with graphic acceleration. Would be cool if someone recompile binaries to do the same for Dos on modern computer.

> > please no too much technical abbreviations.
> Hopefully I've avoided using any.... unless you class DNF as one? :)
DOS extender wiki link you provided is somewhat fullfilled with them, but i think i have got the whole idea, and DOS32A is included with Watcom which i already installed, so i will look into that.

---
[X] Don't use LFN

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
28.06.2010, 07:07

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> > > The game Tyrian refuse to run at all, giving runtime error :-( .
>
> I will try that and what others advised, this game is worth it.

Yes, it's good, probably works fine in DOSBox, lemme check their compatibility list:

http://www.dosbox.com/comp_list.php?showID=1733&letter=T

Also see this:

http://digg.com/pc_games/OpenTyrian_Play_Tyrian_without_needing_DOSBox

BTW, seriously, DOSEMU is pretty native speed using V86 (in 32-bit mode, at least), so if you ever decide to try Linux, try that, much much faster than DOSBox (although the latter has much better sound support).

> I play xDuke port on my winXP machine mainly, it is nearly 100% same old
> duke but running whole in memory with graphic acceleration. Would be cool
> if someone recompile binaries to do the same for Dos on modern computer.

The DOS version can indeed be recompiled with OpenWatcom, but there will almost definitely be no hardware acceleration (as only few old cards supported DOS anyways), but look into MESA if you're really curious. (Not sure if it works with OpenWatcom, but at least old 6.x supported DJGPP, I think.)

> DOS extender wiki link you provided is somewhat fullfilled with them, but i
> think i have got the whole idea, and DOS32A is included with Watcom which i
> already installed, so i will look into that.

OpenWatcom uses an old version of DOS/32A. I have no idea why, I told them this a long time ago. Check the link I posted earlier, it has the latest from 2006.

Laaca(R)

Homepage

Czech republic,
27.06.2010, 01:13

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

Hello!
At the first point - kernel 2036 is obsolete and you should definitely upgrade to 2038 or 2039:
Go into Ibibio choose one from them, unpack it anywhere, go where unpacked the binaries and run "sys C:"

Now when you have the kernel updated you should ensure tht you are using the latest HIMEMX or JEMMX driver. Generaly I prefer to use EMS because it gives you several nice features although some very "nonstandard" software can refuse to run. Most of crashes of EMS can be solved by specifying the "X" parameter in JEMMX command line.
On one of my computers I have "X=test" and on other one something else (I can't remember now), you should look into docs.
Game Tyrian is written in Borland pascal v.7.0 for 16-bit protect mode and for some reason it most probably will not run if you have more than 32MB of EMS memory. So in command line to Jemmx you should also add parameter "max=32" (or maybe max=32000 (not sure now)). Except this, I am not sure whether Tyrian suffers by famous RTE 200 bug. If yes, it must be patched by utility TPpatch

---
DOS-u-akbar!

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
27.06.2010, 08:44

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> First of all, sorry if this is not the right place to write about that.

This is probably the BEST place to ask!

> I have installed Freedos (kernel 2036) on my netbook (Not without troubles
> i can say).

I would suggest trying 2038 (and not 2039) although it probably doesn't matter for 99% of people.

BTW, honestly, it might be "better" to run under DOSEMU in your favorite Linux distro, IMHO, since you can indeed still multitask and things like ACPI (cpu fan) will work much better. Of course, that's assuming it supports your games, which it may not. (BioMenace never worked there when I tried. DJGPP stuff works good though.)

> Of course, first of all I began to launch my favourite games.
> So Duke3d (thats my favourite) runs without problems,

Even with sound??? I'd be surprised. DOSBox is good for emulating sound stuff, but overall it's fairly slow. Still good to have, though.

> and thats probably it
> is something dos4gw, and doesnt need memory managers. Also some very old
> games like f.e. Tower Toppler ran ok only if i disabled HIMEM driver,
> otherwise it told me smtng like "Invalid executable format".
> The game Tyrian refuse to run at all, giving runtime error :-( . And the
> game is cool.

Most people suggest DOS/32A as a full-time DOS/4GW replacement. And I think? it fixes some weird issues (PIC?) on newer PCs.

http://dos32a.narechk.net

I haven't played Tyrian in a long time, but if what people here say is true, you need a patch or this TSR:

ftp://ftp.sac.sk/pub/sac/utilprog/r200fix.zip

> About my comp: HP Compaq Mini 311 (Intel 945 mobo, 1 Gb memory )
> About dos config: nothing except himem driver.
> I use HIMEMX.EXE, and at boot it says "UMB's unavailable" ,
> HIMEM.EXE also works but without that message.

You usually can't use UMBs without EMM386, but you can always try UMBPCI (22 May 2010 !!).

http://www.uwe-sieber.de/umbpci_e.html

> MEM.EXE reports me my 1gb free memory. Without himem loaded, it shows that
> 1Gb is used! Also it doesn't show any video memory, which must be part of
> system memory (I'm not sure it should thou).
>
> Ok, so what about EMS? I tried emm386.exe, Jemm.exe both and my system just
> crashes, so i stopped experimenting with that.
> I remember, in ms-dos i used qemm.exe with a lot of line parameters.

Most likely ACPI conflict, you'll have to weed out the problem UMB area. IIRC, geti15ex.exe from HX was helpful (search this forum).

> Playing Duke is not the reason why i decided to go dos, of course :-D
> I want to refresh my programming knowledge now, So I need some advice on
> how to setup DOS properly to use it with openWatcom and write some
> graphical apps (i don't think i will ever go further 640x480x256 mode).

I'd suggest Allegro (4.2.2) or GRX or DEPUI or similar. At one time at least Allegro supported OpenWatcom, but I'm not sure what version. (DJGPP is nice, so you should get that too.)

http://alleg.sourceforge.net/old.html

(or RAINE's patched version):
http://rainemu.swishparty.co.uk/html/archive/allegro-4.2.2.tar.bz2

http://grx.gnu.de/

http://www.deleveld.dds.nl/depui33/depui.htm

Laaca(R)

Homepage

Czech republic,
27.06.2010, 10:44

@ Rugxulo
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> I'd suggest Allegro (4.2.2) or GRX or DEPUI or similar. At one time at
> least Allegro supported OpenWatcom, but I'm not sure what version. (DJGPP
> is nice, so you should get that too.)
>
> http://alleg.sourceforge.net/old.html
>
> (or RAINE's patched version):
> http://rainemu.swishparty.co.uk/html/archive/allegro-4.2.2.tar.bz2
>
> http://grx.gnu.de/
>
> http://www.deleveld.dds.nl/depui33/depui.htm

If was the C programmed I would use at the first point DUGL.
http://dugl.50webs.com/

---
DOS-u-akbar!

Misha(R)

E-mail

RU,
28.06.2010, 03:52

@ Rugxulo
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> BTW, honestly, it might be "better" to run under DOSEMU in your favorite
> Linux distro, IMHO, since you can indeed still multitask and things like
> ACPI (cpu fan) will work much better. Of course, that's assuming it
> supports your games, which it may not. (BioMenace never worked there when I
> tried. DJGPP stuff works good though.)

My favourite linux distro? To tell the truth i never even worked on a pc with linux. All systems i used begin with MS letters. But wait, now i use FreeDOS!

> > Of course, first of all I began to launch my favourite games.
> > So Duke3d (thats my favourite) runs without problems,
>
> Even with sound??? I'd be surprised. DOSBox is good for emulating sound
> stuff, but overall it's fairly slow. Still good to have, though.
No, there are no any sounds:-( . My netbook doesnt even have a "PC-speaker" which was my hope when i launched games from late 80s.
Dosbox can run a lot of old stuff, even copy protected, but duke3d, f.e., in it is just unplayable. And thats on a hi-end machine (i dont mean my netbook:-) ).


> > MEM.EXE reports me my 1gb free memory. Without himem loaded, it shows
> that
> > 1Gb is used! Also it doesn't show any video memory, which must be part
> of
> > system memory (I'm not sure it should thou).
> >
> > Ok, so what about EMS? I tried emm386.exe, Jemm.exe both and my system
> just
> > crashes, so i stopped experimenting with that.
> > I remember, in ms-dos i used qemm.exe with a lot of line parameters.
>
> Most likely ACPI conflict, you'll have to weed out the problem UMB area.
> IIRC, geti15ex.exe from HX was helpful (search this forum).

Sounds not good. I hope sometime i will know whats these acpi, dpmi and similar animals are. UMB is memory between 640 k and 1 mb, (I think i studied that in school) and it was used to load TSR programs like hardware drivers?

---
[X] Don't use LFN

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
28.06.2010, 07:26

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> My favourite linux distro? To tell the truth i never even worked on a pc
> with linux. All systems i used begin with MS letters. But wait, now i use
> FreeDOS!

I know DOS386 always picks on me when I mention Vista or Linux, but seriously, some things don't have proper hardware support in DOS (ACPI, newer soundcards, file systems). If you ever install Ubuntu or Debian or Fedora, you can (from multiverse) download DOSEMU + FreeDOS, which in many ways (but not all) is better than Vista's NTVDM (fast but limited) or DOSBox (slow but good).

I'm not saying pure FreeDOS is bad, it's not. But some things will just work better with some virtualization going on in the background.

> > > Of course, first of all I began to launch my favourite games.
> > > So Duke3d (thats my favourite) runs without problems,
> >
> > Even with sound??? I'd be surprised. DOSBox is good for emulating sound
> > stuff, but overall it's fairly slow. Still good to have, though.
> No, there are no any sounds:-( . My netbook doesnt even have a "PC-speaker"
> which was my hope when i launched games from late 80s.

Newer soundcards aren't fully (or even partially, most of the time) compatible with old SB, so old DOS software won't work. PC speakers aren't always included on PCs anymore either. On this laptop here (search this forum for Wolf4SDL or Wolf4GW) it fakes it via real speaker, which bypasses headphones and is LOUD!!!!

> Dosbox can run a lot of old stuff, even copy protected, but duke3d, f.e.,
> in it is just unplayable. And thats on a hi-end machine (i dont mean my
> netbook:-) ).

Increase the cycles via Ctrl-F12 until it gets to a reasonable speed. Actually, I think 0.74 now runs most pmode stuff in dynamic core. You might also want to increase the default mem limit ("memsize" in dosbox.conf) to bigger than 16 MB (which is too low, IMHO, and causes some games to choke).

DOSBox indeed has very good sound emulation (SB, GUS, Adlib).

> Sounds not good. I hope sometime i will know whats these acpi, dpmi and
> similar animals are.

ACPI = power management (suspend, resume, etc.), successor to APM but way more complex, often buggy, sometimes not friendly to non-MS OSes, etc. In other words, big pain.

DPMI = DOS Protected Mode Interface (usually but not always 32-bit), first supported in Win 3.0, basically the modern version of VCPI, which was a superset of EMM386! It lets you run protected mode DOS software under the care of a bigger supervisor (EMM386, Windows, OS/2, Linux's DOSEMU, SCO Merge). Without DPMI, you have to use EMM386 (VCPI) or XMS or raw mode. Most so-called DOS extenders support all of these (e.g. anything by OpenWatcom or DJGPP).

DOS386(R)

28.06.2010, 11:27

@ Rugxulo
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> my graphic card is scaling (to-fit) standard video modes and that really sucks.

What modes ? All ???

> If it is something that i will not be able to control in my program, then who
> I will blame for it? And god knows how it will look on another person's screen.

Use safe resolutions 640x480 and 800x600.

> I think 640x480 is safe to run on most computers.

YES, there is VGA 640x480x4bpp with planes, B***-S*** VESA and LFB VESA.

> You may be laughing, i have 1024x576 matrix on my netbook.

COOL.

> All systems i used begin with MS letters. But wait, now i use FreeDOS!

COOL :-)

> seriously, some things don't have proper hardware support in DOS
> (ACPI, newer soundcards, file systems).

Wrong. Who said this? Anyone tried to get them working instead of


while (1) printf ("no support in DOS no need in DOS get Linux there is no BLOAT in Linux DOS doesn't need more than 4gb")


Also, filesystems don't need any hardware support, and the FAT crap mess is there, why? Because nobody ever tried to fix it, or even missdeclares it as a "feature" :-(

> If you ever install Ubuntu or Debian or Fedora,

NEVER

> you can (from multiverse) download DOSEMU + FreeDOS, which in many
> ways (but not all) is better than Vista's NTVDM (fast but limited) or
> DOSBox (slow but good).

No real mode, no Ring0, no physical memory, no bloat avoidance, ... :-(

> I'm not saying pure FreeDOS is bad, it's not. But some things will just
> work better with some virtualization going on in the background.

Examples + evidence please.

> Newer soundcards aren't fully (or even partially, most of the time)
> compatible with old SB, so old DOS software won't work.

Indeed. But where are all the new games ???

> Sounds not good. I hope sometime i will know whats these acpi, dpmi and
> similar animals are.

> ACPI = power management (suspend, resume, etc.), successor to APM but way
> more complex, often buggy, sometimes not friendly to non-MS OSes, etc. In
> other words, big pain.

Don't forget APIC :-(

> DPMI = DOS Protected Mode Interface (usually but not always 32-bit), first
> supported in Win 3.0, basically the modern version

obsolete

> of VCPI, which was a superset of EMM386!

it still is and still is obsolete

DPMS - another superset of DR-EMM386 (only)

DUGL - a graphics and GUI library for DGJPP and FreeBASIC

VESA - a software standard to access graph card with INT $10 from real mode and partially also from protected mode

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

Misha(R)

E-mail

RU,
29.06.2010, 03:28

@ DOS386
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> > my graphic card is scaling (to-fit) standard video modes and that really
> sucks.
>
> What modes ? All ???
Yes, after bios is loaded everything becomes stretched. Is it surprise to you? But there is no control of this feature in bios setup util. Would be nice if FreeDOS will manage this via boot config, so user can define scaling factors for common video modes. So in my case this would be 2 for 320x200 and 320x240 and 1 for 640x480. I suppose it a known (not for me) bios flag. I will be happy seeing circles as circles, not ovals. :-)

> > If you ever install Ubuntu or Debian or Fedora,
>
> NEVER
I don't know why, I don't think i'll be using that ^^. Maybe because best memories of working on computers are with Dos. Those short filenames aligned in NC panels are nice-looking, you know... I notice serios devices like videocameras also use short filenames, any suggestions why?

> VESA - a software standard to access graph card with INT $10 from
> real mode and partially also from protected mode
I have looked thru several online documents about VESA . I am wondering, some people say there is no 2d acceleration of Dos programs without appropriate drivers, but I was in confidence that some standard techiques like bringing raw bitmap data to video memory must be defined by default superfast primitive functions which maybe doesn't even require an OS. But these are just my superficial thoughts.
Anyway I am in the mood of learning something low-level rather then using other's huge/not so huge libraries without understanding. I dont care much about cross-platform compatibility, also.

---
[X] Don't use LFN

Laaca(R)

Homepage

Czech republic,
29.06.2010, 05:19

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

Video stretching on widescreen display can not be transparently controlled because it is dependednd on the videochip. Hypotheticaly it could be controlled by proprietary functions via VESA standard (AX=4F11h) but I don't know such card.
Some time ago Rayer had written utility for allowing and disabling video stretching for certain nVidia chips.

Or you can use another sollution - just connect your notebook with external monitor with 4:3 sizes and everything will be fine.

---
DOS-u-akbar!

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
29.06.2010, 14:07

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> Yes, after bios is loaded everything becomes stretched. Is it surprise to
> you? But there is no control of this feature in bios setup util. Would be
> nice if FreeDOS will manage this via boot config

Search the FreeDOS FAQ, I'm pretty sure somebody had a similar problem. Or e-mail Eric Auer, I think he figured it out back then (hopefully still remembers).

> > > If you ever install Ubuntu or Debian or Fedora,
> >
> > NEVER
> I don't know why, I don't think i'll be using that ^^. Maybe because best
> memories of working on computers are with Dos.

Use whatever you want. It's just that modern hardware is intentionally less friendly to DOS. :-/

> Those short filenames
> aligned in NC panels are nice-looking, you know... I notice serios devices
> like videocameras also use short filenames, any suggestions why?

Various DOS file managers (e.g. NDN or DOSZip) support LFNs too! :-) As for FAT32 LFNs (and exFAT), that's almost definitely due to patents by MS. (Dumb dumb dumb! Seriously, Linux supports like 40+ FSs! None encumbered, last I checked. MS is really stupid here.)

> > VESA - a software standard to access graph card with INT $10 from
> > real mode and partially also from protected mode
> I have looked thru several online documents about VESA . I am wondering,
> some people say there is no 2d acceleration of Dos programs without
> appropriate drivers, but I was in confidence that some standard techiques
> like bringing raw bitmap data to video memory must be defined by default
> superfast primitive functions which maybe doesn't even require an OS. But
> these are just my superficial thoughts.

Allegro supports VBE/AF, which does support (very few, limited) old cards like my P166's ATI Mach64. Good for e.g. Doom: Eternity engine + FreeDoom. ;-)

> Anyway I am in the mood of learning something low-level rather then using
> other's huge/not so huge libraries without understanding. I dont care much
> about cross-platform compatibility, also.

Good, 'cause Allegro doesn't support DOS anymore. :lol:

Arjay(R)

29.06.2010, 08:46

@ DOS386
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> > I'm not saying pure FreeDOS is bad, it's not. But some things will just
> > work better with some virtualization going on in the background.
>
> Examples + evidence please.
Ok I'll bite. On modern PC's lacking hardware emulation of SBPro, GUS etc, non-native DOS applications like ScummVM do a much better job than if someone trys to run the same games in "pure" DOS.

Older DOS demos, e.g. Amnesia by Renaissance has excellent music by Ryan Cramer but is a fairly difficult demo to get to run (and it was when it came out). It is a good example of a demo that runs fine under DOSBox but not so well "native".

Demos/Games which are GUS only etc. PC's were the only ports are USB, the hard disk is SATA etc.

So I am sorry but there are times when (on modern faster hardware in particular) when applications like DOSBox is the right option vs trying to run something native. There is however a place for "both" which is why I recently recommended to someone who was using DOSBox with an "application" that we sometimes we ran it native as well since he often needed to quickly boot up enter/reference some data and booting "native" allows that to happen.

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
29.06.2010, 14:02

@ DOS386
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> > seriously, some things don't have proper hardware support in DOS
> > (ACPI, newer soundcards, file systems).
>
> Wrong. Who said this? Anyone tried to get them working instead of
>
>
> while (1) printf ("no support in DOS no need in DOS get Linux there is no
> BLOAT in Linux DOS doesn't need more than 4gb")
>


It's not easy to get everything working. We don't have any companies (AFAICT) that sponsor any DOS development. Moreso the number of users isn't as high as you-know-which-others.

> Also, filesystems don't need any hardware support, and the FAT crap
> mess is there, why? Because nobody ever tried to fix it, or even
> missdeclares it as a "feature" :-(

I misspoke, I didn't mean hardware, I meant the software doesn't have the proper hooks (often because it's too complex, undocumented, or nobody had the initiative).

> > If you ever install Ubuntu or Debian or Fedora,
>
> NEVER

They aren't that bad. Anyways, I was just listing the big names, the popular ones. (Some littler ones are better but have issues with DOSEMU, at least in my experience, see below.)

> > you can (from multiverse) download DOSEMU + FreeDOS, which in many
> > ways (but not all) is better than Vista's NTVDM (fast but limited) or
> > DOSBox (slow but good).
>
> No real mode, no Ring0, no physical memory, no bloat avoidance, ... :-(

Most people use Ring0 only for the kernel. No physical memory is due to pmode, meant to be safer to multitask. But bloat is indeed a problem for all modern software.

> > I'm not saying pure FreeDOS is bad, it's not. But some things will just
> > work better with some virtualization going on in the background.
>
> Examples + evidence please.

The P4 in the other room I've been using lately (since main previous P4 had/has minor HD and CD issues but still mostly works) runs XP in 128 MB (total, heh). Luckily, when my bro "restored" it, he left the restore (FAT) partition there, so I don't have to resize anything, and I can use FreeDOS natively. I even installed ZipSlack (11) for laughs. However, both of those OSes seem to make the fan run at full speed. It's not really that load, but it's definitely annoying, esp. since XP has some secret way of shutting it up at bootup. I looked at FDAPM, but nothing jumped out at me or worked. I blame ACPI, but who knows. (I did try a few other Linuxes, but maybe they were too old. For sure ZipSlack uses 2.4.x, but even 2.6.x probably doesn't fix the issue, I dunno. Also hard to find a decent Linux for 128 MB RAM. ZipSlack was just easy to install "for fun".)

Sadly, oddly, but I couldn't get DOSEMU to run on that computer under ZipSlack. I even downloaded a specific compile for Slackware 11, but it didn't work (weird errors, e.g. Z:\ wasn't read or something weird like that.) Honestly, it might be because DOSEMU needs 2.6.x nowadays (why??? argh ...). Or maybe I lacked some obvious dependency (since ZipSlack isn't a full install). I probably need to test full Slackware 11 under VirtualBox on my laptop to find out for sure.

Also the other "main" P4 has recently been booting only from USB (since XP borked itself there) running Puppy 4.3.1, but DOSEMU doesn't work there either ("Bus error"), which is a little less than obvious.

So whatever. That's my deal. You may not agree, and I certainly didn't plan any specific OS install, it's "just the way it is" (for now), and it's at least mostly functional. (I'm on my buggy Vista laptop now. Somehow I doubt latest Ubuntu LTS or similar fully works here, but I haven't tried.)

To be honest, what I really want is an ultra small, fairly modern Linux with DOSEMU. I should maybe install DeLi (from .ISO I grabbed a while back) as it had a port, but their website seems dead. :-( (But they used uClibc anyways, which is quirky. And I really didn't want the extra overhead of Unicode from 0.8.0.)

Long story short: it's not that I hate native DOS (obviously), but Intel HDA, EFI, AMD64, ACPI troubles, AHCI, SATA, USB, NTFS or ext[234] or ffs, BIOS bugs, multicore, floppy market dying, etc. don't help. :-/ I really don't think wanting to use DOSEMU full-time in the future (if necessary) is so horrible. Hardware just changes too fast (and not always for the better).

DOS386(R)

29.06.2010, 15:25

@ Rugxulo
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> Older DOS demos, e.g. Amnesia by Renaissance has excellent music
> by Ryan Cramer but is a fairly difficult demo to get to run (and it was
> when it came out). It is a good example of a demo that runs fine
> under DOSBox but not so well "native".

Then this demo is faulty. But if old faulty stuff is your reference forever ... ;-)

> It's not easy to get everything working.

Indeed.

> Moreso the number of users isn't as high as you-know-which-others.

And developers. They are gone. Where ? To DOG-BOX and DOG-EMU. Aren't they ?

> They aren't that bad.

Just need 4 GiB RAM, 10 GiB HD, and 4 x 64bit x 3GHz CPU :clap:

> Most people use Ring0 only for the kernel. No physical memory is
> due to pmode, meant to be safer to multitask.

I'm waiting for your good DOS multitasking solution (hint: there is a tiny difference between "good solution" and "bad hack").

> Long story short: it's not that I hate native DOS (obviously), but Intel HDA

Since "we" have just 1 or 2 developers.

> EFI

There should be a solution, and it AFAIK works according to posts in this forum.

> AMD64

Safe to ignore.

> ACPI troubles

What exactly ???

> AHCI

It works well according to posts in this forum.

> SATA

See above.

> USB

See other thread. :-)

> NTFS

Bill's private piece of crap, no relevance for DOS at all.

> BIOS bugs

Driver helps.

> multicore

Safe to ignore.

> floppy market dying

See other thread.

> wanting to use DOSEMU full-time in the future is so horrible.

Reveal how it's better than native Linux development.

> You may be laughing, i have 1024x576 matrix on my netbook.

So (only) 640x480 should work. What modes does your VESA offer ? Is 1024x576 among them ?

> Yes, after bios is loaded everything becomes stretched.

And before ???

> Is it surprise to you?

YES. It could just leave black stripes on left and right.And the height should be 600 of course, not 576.

> Various DOS file managers (e.g. NDN or DOSZip) support LFNs too!

YES. But you missclicked the smiley. Should be :-(

> As for FAT32 LFNs (and exFAT), that's almost definitely due to patents by MS

go here

> Dumb dumb dumb!

Not me.

> Seriously, Linux supports like 40+ FSs!

And this is supposed to be good for DOS ??? :confused:

> I am wondering, some people say there is no 2d acceleration of Dos
> programs without appropriate drivers, but I was in confidence that
> some standard techiques like bringing raw bitmap data to video
> memory must be defined by default superfast primitive functions
> which maybe doesn't even require an OS. But these are just
> my superficial thoughts.

Nope. Just writing into VRAM. No zooming, no YUV, no filled rectangles and even less other polygons.

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

Misha(R)

E-mail

RU,
29.06.2010, 23:42

@ DOS386
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VGA modes)

> > Moreso the number of users isn't as high as you-know-which-others.
>
> And developers. They are gone. Where ? To DOG-BOX and DOG-EMU. Aren't they
> ?

There are a lot of users of DOS, at least here in Russia, but mostly they use ms-dos 6.22. From time to time i see old PCs controlling milling/cutting machines at manufacturing, but they are probably with even older dos (5.0).

> > You may be laughing, i have 1024x576 matrix on my netbook.
>
> So (only) 640x480 should work. What modes does your VESA offer ? Is
> 1024x576 among them ?
Didnt yet figured out. I have EDID dump, but how can i tell what it means? I will google that.

> > Yes, after bios is loaded everything becomes stretched.
>
> And before ???
Splash-screen (it contains text also) is not scaled, but right after that everything become scaled.

> > Is it surprise to you?
>
> YES. It could just leave black stripes on left and right.
That's exactly what I think also. But comp manufacturers think that society is not yet ready for fine graphics and 'quadratic quads' :-D :-D :-D
It was noted that Rayer (i read his post about nVidia cards) and Eric Auer solved this problem somehow. I will try contact them.

> And the height should be 600 of course, not 576.
THe latter model of this netbook is with 1024x600, so i was a little bit unlucky:-( . Just didnt pay attention to that when was buying:-( .

> > some standard techiques like bringing raw bitmap data to video
> > memory must be defined by default superfast primitive functions
> > which maybe doesn't even require an OS. But these are just
> > my superficial thoughts.
>
> Nope. Just writing into VRAM. No zooming, no YUV, no filled rectangles and
> even less other polygons.
Isn't that what i said? Maybe my English suffers, by 'primitive funtcions' i didn't mean any 'humanoid' commands like 'draw_something'. I definitly need to study assembly and vga programming to discuss such things.

---
[X] Don't use LFN

DOS386(R)

30.06.2010, 16:34

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes)

> > What modes does your VESA offer ? Is 1024x576 among them ?
> Didnt yet figured out. I have EDID dump, but how can i tell what it means?
> I will google that.

Get Rayer's VESATEST and DrV's VBEDIAG http://drv.nu/vbediag/

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

RayeR(R)

Homepage

CZ,
11.07.2010, 02:28

@ DOS386
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes)

> > > What modes does your VESA offer ? Is 1024x576 among them ?
> > Didnt yet figured out. I have EDID dump, but how can i tell what it
> means?
> > I will google that.

Hi,
here are my notes to some of your questions posted on BTTR
(I'm reading and replying offline)

1) Graphics scaling
Widescreen displays are pain for DOS use, this is also one
of the reason why I had bought my LCD panel with 1600x1200
native mode :) But there's a chance that if you have nVidia
graphics controller then it will be possible to turn off
the scaler and you will got nice 640x480 mode 1:1.
As your native mode is not so large it would fit well.
But if your netbook is lowcost model with intel integrated
graphics then it will not work - my utility directly depends
on nvidia proprietary VESA BIOS extension which it AFAIK not
available/is different on other videos.

2) VESA modes
You can try to use my VESATEST utility to analyze and test
available VESA modes. If you'll have a luck then your
VESA BIOS supports native widescreen mode and you will
be able to programm GUI things for it yourself.
Nvidia VESA BIOSes sometimes include widescreen modes...

3) Graphics acceleration
There's ANY HARDWARE STANDARD for 2D/3D acceleration
on modern graphics HW. You only got a piece of linear
memory (VESA LFB) where you can write directly graphics
data but no primitives, no transformations. VESA supports
only putpixel function but it's extremely slow so nobody
seriously use it. Forget VBE/AF, it's dead (usefull only
on very old graphics chips).

I hope I make it clear for you

Martin

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Laaca(R)

Homepage

Czech republic,
13.07.2010, 01:17

@ RayeR
 

Modding the VESA BIOS

Here is an interresting discussion about modding the VESA BIOS to include the widescreen modes.
http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=211294&st=0

---
DOS-u-akbar!

Misha(R)

E-mail

RU,
13.07.2010, 14:21

@ RayeR
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes)

Hi, thanks for reply, I was on a vacation, so posting only now.

> But if your netbook is lowcost model with intel integrated
> graphics then it will not work - my utility directly depends
> on nvidia proprietary VESA BIOS extension which it AFAIK not
> available/is different on other videos.
Yes it is lowcost model with intel graphics.
I found a tool called IEGD on Intel site which is able to solve my problem, at least disable scaling for vesa modes. It can produce DOS TSR program which duplicates VBIOS settings, so i dont need to replace the whole BIOS thing.
But this tool is complicated, I will post results if there will be any positive.

> 3) Graphics acceleration
> There's ANY HARDWARE STANDARD for 2D/3D acceleration
> on modern graphics HW. You only got a piece of linear
> memory (VESA LFB) where you can write directly graphics
> data but no primitives, no transformations.
If i understand right, I cannot use any power of graphic chip without using directX or opengl. But actually only few capabilites like hardware clipping and maybe pixel shaders are interesting for me.

---
[X] Don't use LFN

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
13.07.2010, 17:26

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes)

> I found a tool called IEGD on Intel site which is able to solve my problem,

Really? Good! Hope it helps.

> If i understand right, I cannot use any power of graphic chip without using
> directX or opengl. But actually only few capabilites like hardware clipping
> and maybe pixel shaders are interesting for me.

Anything those can do, DOS can also do. But, just like them, you have to tell it to do so. Unfortunately, nobody bothers releasing DOS drivers. The biggest problem (aside from lack of more skilled DOS developers) is proprietary stuff, no specs, etc. But Intel might have released some details, and I'm sure you're not the first to want to use it under a non-mainstream OS.

Misha(R)

E-mail

RU,
14.07.2010, 13:55

@ Rugxulo
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes)

> Anything those can do, DOS can also do. But, just like them, you have to
> tell it to do so. Unfortunately, nobody bothers releasing DOS drivers. The
> biggest problem (aside from lack of more skilled DOS developers) is
> proprietary stuff, no specs, etc. But Intel might have released some
> details, and I'm sure you're not the first to want to use it under a
> non-mainstream OS.
Well, seems like Intel dont forget DOS. BTW it is mentioned IBM PC-DOS 2000 (what is that ???) and MS-DOS in compatibility list for that tool.
Besides that IEGD tool there are also some tech docs (API references) but only for 'privileged' members.

DOS386(R)

14.07.2010, 14:34

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes) INTEL

> Well, seems like Intel dont forget DOS

Less bad (about Intel USB EHCI and ICH (+ partially HDA) sound) than some other hardware. :-|

> BTW it is mentioned IBM PC-DOS 2000 (what is that ???)

A DOS/DOG kernel dropped 10 years ago, neither free, nor open source, I don't care about it.

> there are also some tech docs (API references) but only for 'privileged' members

Typical behaviour, at least CPU and (some?) sound and USB stuff is public.

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
14.07.2010, 18:57

@ DOS386
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes) INTEL

> > BTW it is mentioned IBM PC-DOS 2000 (what is that ???)
>
> A DOS/DOG kernel dropped 10 years ago, neither free, nor open source, I
> don't care about it.

The original IBM PC only leased DOS from Microsoft. The PC-DOS version was what they bundled with their hardware while MS sold their MS-DOS variant to others. Eventually MS and IBM teamed up for OS/2 (1987-1991). Due to their joint venture, they both had full access to the source code for MS-DOS 5 and Win 3.0. When that fizzled (IBM "fired them"), MS went on to use their own portable rewrite of OS/2 for NT. IBM continued to update OS/2 and DOS. PC-DOS 7 was released in 1995 for $125 and included REXX (in lieu of QBASIC?). 2000 was just some minor fixes (I think). I don't think IBM sells OSes anymore, but they do use it in some server scripting kit packs, which (says Lucho) allegedly has an updated kernel with FAT32 support.

(This is all second-hand info, I've never used it. You can check eBay, I've seen 7 "new in box" on there, but old floppies are unreliable, esp. for the price it was going for.)

Misha(R)

E-mail

RU,
18.07.2010, 02:07

@ Rugxulo
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes) INTEL

I spent two evenings in battle with the Intel tool. First of all, it compiles TSR program which is about 73kb and beeing loaded, it makes free base memory about 430 kb and most old games i tried didn run. So I used Duke3d to test things out.
And here are results:

1. Scaling on internal display. Well, I disabled scaling, but it works ONLY for SVGA modes, so, default text mode, and all graphics up to VGA stubbornly scales to fit screen, no matter what options i tried. I suppose this is somehow related to the fact that info tools (I tried ASTRA and vbediag) dont recognise any modes below SVGA (they show only 1024x576 (0x160) as native and 640x480). I have no idea why. Also need to say that any custom port attributes like custom scaling/aspect ratio dont work, at least with internal display.

2. External display. By default, my BIOS dont recognize ANY external displays. :-( With the help of this tool, at last I am able to see something on external display (NEC CRT). But the colors are ALL corrupt (like showing only 16 colors in 256 col mode, blue text on dark blue background in text mode, etc.) Pixel shape and resolutions are good, however.
Maybe dos, unlike windows, need monitor drivers?

Well, there is one positive moment: I found a way to support SVGA modes above 640x480, I just chose 'user defined' DTD as 800x600 and marked it 'native' and now i can use 800x600 with some clipping at bottom of screen.
Yes, picture quality without scaling and disabled dithering is WAY better, just like on a CRT monitor.

So, biggest problem now is that I cannot use external monitor. Any advices how to solve that are welcome.

---
[X] Don't use LFN

Zyzzle(R)

18.07.2010, 08:42

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes) INTEL

Thanks for your update, and I also have been looking forever on a way to accomplish 1:1 scaling in DOS on my cheap Acer Aspire one netbook (Intel 945 Express internal video, I believe it's the 945GSE chipset?)

Misha, you got further than I, downloaded IEGL tool (127 MB) from Intel's site, but was unable to compile a custom DOS TSR successfully. I see the BIOS code provided in the DOS VBE directories, but can't get this to compile to a TSR using the VBIOS code and Open Watcom compiler v. 1.7.

Is there any chance you can post your compiled DOS binary here, or e-mail me a copy of it? Providing your Intel chipset is the same - Intel 945.

Also, there must be a way to disable scaling at resolutions below 640x480. I get VESA resolutions below that... I will test & troubleshoot the TSR if only I can get a working binary!

Misha(R)

E-mail

RU,
18.07.2010, 16:53

@ Zyzzle
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes) INTEL

> Misha, you got further than I, downloaded IEGL tool (127 MB) from Intel's
> site, but was unable to compile a custom DOS TSR successfully. I see the
> BIOS code provided in the DOS VBE directories, but can't get this to
> compile to a TSR using the VBIOS code and Open Watcom compiler v. 1.7.
So what exactly is not working? I use it on Win XP and no problems.
Since you already installed the tool and watcom, you should be able to generate binary. Be sure you marked these checkboxes when installing watcom: DOS 16-bit application and DOS as target OS. Also check your PATH variable.

> Is there any chance you can post your compiled DOS binary here, or e-mail
> me a copy of it? Providing your Intel chipset is the same - Intel 945.
Sure, just give me your e-mail and i will send it.

Arjay(R)

18.07.2010, 18:15

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes) INTEL

> 2. External display. By default, my BIOS dont recognize ANY external
> displays. :-(
Modern monitors use Display Data Channel aka DDC for monitor detection/communication.

Slightly off-topic: DDC 2B is IC based which makes modern VGA ports useful for external interfacing to various devices. See also VGA (VESA DDC).

So look for a VBE (VESA BIOS Extensions) DCC related extension which will most likely be what you will need to call to change to an external monitor. Or for an easy option try already having an external monitor powered up/fully plugged in and then power up the laptop but immediately close the laptop's lid to force the BIOS startup routines to find the active external monitor via the DDC (IC) bus instead of what will be an inactive internal monitor (also on the same bus but inactive as closing most lids makes it inactive - unless you've changed that via a BIOS which sometimes exist). If you get stuck Google VGA BIOS DDC for more info etc.

RayeR(R)

Homepage

CZ,
17.07.2010, 01:40

@ Rugxulo
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes)

> Unfortunately, nobody bothers releasing DOS drivers. The
> biggest problem (aside from lack of more skilled DOS developers) is
> proprietary stuff, no specs, etc.

Yes. nVidia too close to us. I tried to ask them for scaling and setting refreshrate but any reply. Some years later I got leaked NV15 BIOS source that helped me to reveal INT10h extensions and other knowledges to fix vesa mode limitation on LCD and adding new VESA mode :) Look at project nouveau - they are trying to develop opensource linux driver for nvidia and after an years of hardwork they have only some incomplete 2D acceleration. Because any support from nVidiots os they have to do a lot of reverse engineering which goes slow. New graphics HW is soooo complex so you can forgot any acceleration for DOS...

Intel is quite good giving documentation but they keep under NDA some interesting things e.g. about some MSRs and single person cannot sign the NDA (only companies).

My friend working on coreboot project supporting AMD platform is quite happy with AMD CPUs documentation - they don't keep any secrets to developers.

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Laaca(R)

Homepage

Czech republic,
17.07.2010, 11:54

@ RayeR
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes)

Do you have any docs about the INT10h extensions by nVidia?

---
DOS-u-akbar!

RayeR(R)

Homepage

CZ,
17.07.2010, 15:06

@ Laaca
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes)

> Do you have any docs about the INT10h extensions by nVidia?

Just the source but it's commented :)

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Laaca(R)

Homepage

Czech republic,
17.07.2010, 22:36

@ RayeR
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (VESA modes)

> > Do you have any docs about the INT10h extensions by nVidia?
>
> Just the source but it's commented :)


OK, post please here (or me on the private email) the relevant piece of the source.

---
DOS-u-akbar!

DOS386(R)

27.06.2010, 14:49
(edited by DOS386, 27.06.2010, 14:59)

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> If was the C programmed I would use at the first point DUGL. http://dugl.50webs.com/

Right. Use DUGL for DGJPP GUI programing. For FreeBASIC you can use DUGL or FreeBASIC lib or whatever.

> There are many options: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_x86_DOS_operating_systems

This article really sucks (NO, I'm not going to edit it :crying:).

Rugxulo wrote:

> BTW, honestly, it might be "better" to run under DOSEMU in your favorite Linux distro

Hmm "better" :confused: ... if you deprecate DOS (FYI, I really deprecate Linux instead)

Misha wrote:

> sorry if this is not the right place to write about that.

It is (there is also FreeDOS mailing list).

> I have installed Freedos (kernel 2036) on my netbook (Not without troubles

Get 2038 kernel, distros are bugged :-(

> So Duke3d (thats my favourite) runs without problems, and thats probably it
> is something dos4gw, and doesnt need memory managers.

Try DOS/32A ... if some game fails :hungry:

> Also some very old games like f.e. Tower Toppler ran ok only if i disabled HIMEM driver

Get HIMEMX 3.32 (or 3.33 for 80386 ...)

> The game Tyrian refuse to run at all, giving runtime error :-( . And the game is cool.

Where does it work ??? The "Error 200" is a problem of TP vs CPU, not FreeDOS ;-)

> MEM.EXE reports me my 1gb free memory. Without himem loaded, it shows that
> 1Gb is used!

MEM.EXE is primarily for the 640 KiB of low memory.

> Also it doesn't show any video memory, which must be part of system memory

NO. Get RayeR's VESATEST ;-) (some video cards and chips lie about their memory, however).

> Ok, so what about EMS? I tried emm386.exe, Jemm.exe both and my
> system just crashes, so i stopped experimenting with that.

Try to load JEMMEX from commandline (no HIMEM whatever loaded).

> I want to refresh my programming knowledge now

Check out FASM :-)

> So I need some advice on how to setup DOS properly to use it with openWatcom

Use DOS/32A. (HIMEM or EMM stuff not needed) instead of DOG4/SW.

> and write some graphical apps (i don't think i will ever go further 640x480x256

Why ???

> Can someone recommend other DOSes?

EDR-DOS

Also, when reporting further trouble please supply bugshots (showing full error messages and version numbers of stuff used).

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

Misha(R)

E-mail

RU,
28.06.2010, 05:11

@ DOS386
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> > So I need some advice on how to setup DOS properly to use it with
> openWatcom
>
> Use DOS/32A. (HIMEM or EMM stuff not needed) instead of DOG4/SW.
Ok, if I describe my hypothetical program maybe we will be more clear.
I was thinking about writing some very simple graphical program first just to understand the basics better. But here comes hypothetical problems: my graphic card is scaling (to-fit) standard video modes and that really sucks. If it is something that i will not be able to control in my program, then who I will blame for it? And god knows how it will look on another person's screen.

>
> > and write some graphical apps (i don't think i will ever go further
> 640x480x256
>
> Why ???
I am not going to develop any CAD or DTP software, at least now. I think 640x480 is safe to run on most computers. You may be laughing, i have 1024x576 matrix on my netbook.


> > Can someone recommend other DOSes?
>
> EDR-DOS
>
> Also, when reporting further trouble please supply bugshots (showing full
> error messages and version numbers of stuff used).

I will if i can. I was not doing much yet as you see, crashes with JEMMEX (last version i suppose) was something like this: grouped digits in appr. 2 text lines appeared and then computer hangs (Ctrl-Alt-Del dont work). Also FDISK utility from distro 1.0 made my computer "Missing operating system":-) when i tried to make second partion, but i am sure i didnt asked it to touch first (dos) partition. But XFDISK did the job better.

And thank everybody for answering!

---
[X] Don't use LFN

Rugxulo(R)

Homepage

Usono,
28.06.2010, 07:13

@ Misha
 

Bunch of questions on FreeDos (memory managers)

> I was thinking about writing some very simple graphical program first just
> to understand the basics better. But here comes hypothetical problems: my
> graphic card is scaling (to-fit) standard video modes and that really
> sucks. If it is something that i will not be able to control in my program,
> then who I will blame for it? And god knows how it will look on another
> person's screen.

Dunno, but Allegro is full of support for various cards. It might be more of a BIOS issue. Or maybe using SVGATextMode tools will help. I forget, but I'm pretty sure someone had similar issue once before, so last resort, check the FreeDOS FAQ.

> I am not going to develop any CAD or DTP software, at least now. I think
> 640x480 is safe to run on most computers. You may be laughing, i have
> 1024x576 matrix on my netbook.

Nobody's laughing, 640x480 should be fine if that's what you want.

> I will if i can. I was not doing much yet as you see, crashes with JEMMEX
> (last version i suppose) was something like this: grouped digits in appr. 2
> text lines appeared and then computer hangs (Ctrl-Alt-Del dont work).

JEMM's docs list a "ultra-safe" setting, so you should try that before assuming anything. Yeah, it's technically "too safe", but that's what you want before adding lots of extra params.

> Also FDISK utility from distro 1.0 made my computer "Missing operating
> system":-) when i tried to make second partion, but i am sure i didnt
> asked it to touch first (dos) partition. But XFDISK did the job better.

FD FDISK there is old (as is FD 1.0 by now, 2006, but still no 1.1 yet) and has a few bugs. There was a slightly newer version, but even that was never truly finished. Yes, XFDISK might work better. SPFDISK is mostly good for SATA hard drives.

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Know your limits.h

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