DOS ain't dead

As on the announce title this new version of DUGL PLayer add support for ogg/theora video format. But also completely remove mpeg1/2 video format support.
I'm taking this as an alpha version as i'm planing to add support for vorbis audio, when I'm done with AC'97 sound driver.
Here the download link for the source and binary DUGL Player 0.4 1.1 MB (most for the size is the DOS386 LOONIX.OGG sample) I can upload DJGPP OGG/Theora library binary if some one is willing to recompile it.

Feedbacks are more than welcome

Good news!!

Well, the support for .OGG files is, of course, cool. But on other hand the dropped support for MPEG videos is a mistake I think.
OGG format is very good but requires quite fast processor for decompressing.
And the second more important issue is that OGG files are not widely used. Or how many .OGG files have you seen?
I know that f.e. wikipedia use them but except that they are extremely rare. We can, of course, convert another format to them, even in DOS using FFMPEG encoder but it is not very comfortable.

So, I find the MPEG dropping as quite problematic.

---
DOS-u-akbar!

I dropped MPEG1/2 support for 2 main raisons :
- First MPEG1/2 is a patented video/audio format. So as I'm not sure about the legal issues. Even is DUGL Player is a freeware!
- Second, I used LIBMPEG2 which is a GPLed library, and also I have doubts about legal issues, as DUGL core library is closed source. (DUGL player source available not enough ?!)

For the OGG format, It's right that we need (i guess) two times more powerful CPU to see the same video. But it's :
- Patent free format
- Video file is about 30% of the size MPEG2 file for the same quality.
- theora/ogg/vorbis library are free for any usage.
- Demuxing audio/video is pretty easy not as libmpeg2

I miss the support of MPEG as well. The possible legal issue is a problem. Anybody who knows more?

> I can upload DJGPP OGG/Theora library binary if some one is
> willing to recompile it.

What exactly needs to be recompiled and why?

P.S. I'm no lawyer, but I think MPEG is allowed by Fraunhoffer (sp?) to be encoded/decoded for non-commercial use. I personally welcome OGG support. While it's true that MPEG is more common, it's surely not on merit alone! And Wikipedia is a good enough source (better than nothing, at least) of OGG files (honestly, I don't think I have very many MPEGs, if any, because there isn't a lot of free content out there). Some Linux distros don't provide MPEG playing out-of-the-box due to patent fears, others don't do it out of principle, and still others boast about including "all" media codecs (which is a bit worrisome, even for me, a person who isn't very digital-media-oriented). In short, it's kinda hard to police a world this big, but at the same time, still probably not wise to run rampant either. But I think DUGL is okay either way (although I prefer this one, at least in theory).

> > I can upload DJGPP OGG/Theora library binary if some one is
> > willing to recompile it.
>
> What exactly needs to be recompiled and why?

Maybe some one want to modify, improve DUGL Player. Or just want binaries of the lib ogg/theora library that I have compiled for another usage.

> P.S. I'm no lawyer, but I think MPEG is allowed by Fraunhoffer (sp?) to be
> encoded/decoded for non-commercial use. I personally welcome OGG support.
> While it's true that MPEG is more common, it's surely not on merit alone!
> And Wikipedia is a good enough source (better than nothing, at least) of
> OGG files (honestly, I don't think I have very many MPEGs, if any, because
> there isn't a lot of free content out there). Some Linux distros don't
> provide MPEG playing out-of-the-box due to patent fears, others don't do
> it out of principle, and still others boast about including "all" media
> codecs (which is a bit worrisome, even for me, a person who isn't very
> digital-media-oriented). In short, it's kinda hard to police a world this
> big, but at the same time, still probably not wise to run rampant either.
> But I think DUGL is okay either way (although I prefer this one, at least
> in theory).

Any way, my previous support of mpeg1/2 was a bit ridiculous as user have to use an external exe to split the mpeg file into video and audio ! Trying to add my self demuxing I found that i have to understand the low-level binary format of a mpeg file !

BTW I have a question about ffmpeg2theora ! even if i use the "-v 10" for best quality I never get the same quality as the input file :( and the output file is also bigger than the original. Is this a limitation of theora/ogg format or a limitation of the ffmpeg2theora ?

FFK wrote:

> As on the announce title this new version of DUGL PLayer add support
> for ogg/theora video format.



> But also completely remove mpeg1/2 video format support.



> I'm taking this as an alpha version as i'm planing to add support for
> vorbis audio, when I'm done with AC'97 sound driver.



> Feedbacks are more than welcome

Excellent news ... I'll download and test and mirror

Laaca wrote:

> But on other hand the dropped support for MPEG videos is a mistake I think.

Drop obsolete stuff

> OGG format is very good but requires quite fast processor for decompressing.

Evidence please. Any reliable test results ???

> And the second more important issue is that OGG files are not widely used.

OGG: increasing MPEG: dying BTW, Firefox 3.5 (non-DOS) also has OGG video support, so it will get more popular in future

> Or how many .OGG files have you seen?

Many

> I know that f.e. wikipedia use them but except that they are extremely rare.

No longer.

> We can, of course, convert another format to them, even in DOS using FFMPEG encoder

YES, Since Japheth finally fixed the spurious-seek-BUG

> So, I find the MPEG dropping as quite problematic.

IMHO it's better to adopt new technologies in DOS than keep up all obsolete crap that one can dig out on various "technology" cemeteries

FFK wrote:

> BTW I have a question about ffmpeg2theora ! even if i use the "-v 10" for
> best quality I never get the same quality as the input file

heh ???

> and the output file is also bigger than the original.

heh ???

> Is this a limitation of theora/ogg format or a limitation of the ffmpeg2theora ?

NO. NO.

Theora is (like MPEG 1/2/4 and others ) a lossy-only codec. Sorry but that's how pretty all lossy multimedia codecs do work, including JPEG

IMPORTANT: To run FFMPEG , FFMPEG2THEORA , FFMPEG2DIRAC and MENCODER in DOS, the secret update of HX from 2009-08 is required , otherwise output file is garbage

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Welcome back

> Excellent news ... I'll download and test and mirror



> > Is this a limitation of theora/ogg format or a limitation of the
> ffmpeg2theora ?
>
> NO. NO.

ok the ffmpeg2theora parameter -v 10 should be after the name of the input video and it's now much better. But as you said it's a lossy video format so we will never got the same quality as the input file.

> Here the download link for the source and binary
> DUGL Player 0.4 1.1 MB
>
> Feedbacks are more than welcome

I must be missing something here, because I cannot download from that URL.
Running Arachne. Elinks, Lynx in MS-DOS 6.20 - no download, no way !
Is there anywhere else I can attempt a download ? I do have a genuine interest in DOS media players. :)

Ron

---
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> I must be missing something here, because I cannot download from that
> URL.

Still can't from DOS. I had to go to Linux to get the zip.
Which contained version 0.3, not version 0.4, and did not accept OGG files, but did accept .MPG files.

Is the DUGL Player 0.4 alpha anywhere else ?

---
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Tadpole Tunes http://www.tadpoletunes.com
Sna Keo Il http://www.tadpoletunes.com/sna_keo_il/

> > I must be missing something here, because I cannot download from that
> > URL.
>
> Still can't from DOS. I had to go to Linux to get the zip.
> Which contained version 0.3, not version 0.4, and did not accept OGG
> files, but did accept .MPG files.
>
> Is the DUGL Player 0.4 alpha anywhere else ?



Here (I hope) a DOS compatible download link. dplay04.zip

> Here (I hope) a DOS compatible download link.
> dplay04.zip

Yep, got it ! Version 0.4.

And it does play some of my .OGG video files.
But without sound at the moment. :(
Which means it locks up tight with any of my OGG/Vorbis files.

---
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Sna Keo Il http://www.tadpoletunes.com/sna_keo_il/

Ron wrote:

> Still can't from DOS. I had to go to Linux to get the zip.

Mediafire sucks, known issue

> dplay04.zip



> And it does play some of my .OGG video files.
> But without sound at the moment.
> Which means it locks up tight with any of my OGG/Vorbis files.

For me it worked (Theora+Vorbis) ... no sound but video OK.

More comments for FFK sent by mail

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> More comments for FFK sent by mail

Thanks for testing and for comments

Here a new version of DUGL Player 0.4 alpha 2 :

- Fixed both crashes with non ogg file or ogg with no theora stream.
- FileBox will filter *.ogg/*.ogv/*.oga each one alone. as multi file filtering is not available now.
- Up to 9 screenshot from DUGLPLYR.BMP to DUGLPLYZ.BMP
- Many cleaning to the source code.

Plus
- Frame dropping (a must have for slow computers)
- UV values interpolating for 420 and 422 pixel format
- ...

DOS Compatible download link
dplay042.zip

project page DUGL Player

> DOS Compatible download link

Many thanks for that. :)

Seems to run just fine on my rig. [AMD K6, 600 MHz, 64 MB RAM, SB16]
Plays .OGG files converted from .MPG very well, although aspect ratio is correct only in full-screen.

Still no sound, though. Is sound planned ?

---
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> Seems to run just fine on my rig. [AMD K6, 600 MHz, 64 MB RAM, SB16]
> Plays .OGG files converted from .MPG very well,

How much fps in full screen with and without (smooth enabled) ?
with/without japheth vesamtrr ?

> although aspect ratio is
> correct only in full-screen.

Yes this is a small issue, will fix it in future version.

> Still no sound, though. Is sound planned ?

Yes sound is planned. I have first to finish a new AC'97 sound driver. (I hope on some weeks) BTW both SB16/SB Pro are currently supported.

> How much fps in full screen with and without (smooth enabled) ?

With smooth enabled: up to 12 fps.
disabled: up to 7 fps

> with/without japheth vesamtrr ?

Don't know what that is.

I use S3VBE20 to boost my Diamond Stealth from VESA 1.2 to 2.0

> Yes sound is planned. I have first to finish a new AC'97 sound driver. (I
> hope on some weeks)

Excellent ! :)

> BTW both SB16/SB Pro are currently supported.

Doesn't work with my SB16 soundcard in MS-DOS 6.20. :(

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> With smooth enabled: up to 12 fps.
> disabled: up to 7 fps

Do you mean 7 fps with smooth and 12 fps without smooth ? as smooth is supposed to slow down things.

> > with/without japheth vesamtrr ?
>
> Don't know what that is.
>
> I use S3VBE20 to boost my Diamond Stealth from VESA 1.2 to 2.0

vesamtrr enable CPU cache for your graphic card VRAM. You will get more fps with it
you can get it from japheth website HXGUI215 inside the UNSUPP directory. Run it after running your S3VBE20.

> > Yes sound is planned. I have first to finish a new AC'97 sound driver.
> (I
> > hope on some weeks)
>
> Excellent ! :)
>
> > BTW both SB16/SB Pro are currently supported.
>
> Doesn't work with my SB16 soundcard in MS-DOS 6.20. :(

Sorry for the ambigiuous answer. I meant that I have a working driver for your SB16. But I have to finish the AC97 driver to start working on adding sound support to DUGL Player.

I got 59 FPS on my C2D in both cases but video looked like slideshow, probably encoded with very low FPS...

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

> Do you mean 7 fps with smooth and 12 fps without smooth ? as smooth is
> supposed to slow down things.

Quite possibly. :) There is no visible indication as to whether smoothing is on or off.


> > > with/without japheth vesamtrr ?
> > Don't know what that is.
>
> vesamtrr enable CPU cache for your graphic card VRAM. You will get more
> fps with it
> you can get it from japheth website

Got it. Ran it.

On one of my testing .OGG files, the difference seemed to be at most 1 additional frame/sec.
On the other, it went up by an extra 20 fps ! With or without smoothing, it ran at 35 fps.
Remarkable !

It seems the effect depends on the quality of the .OGG file. At low frame-rate, there is not a lot of improvement available, but with high frame-rates there is a noticeable improvement.

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> I got 59 FPS on my C2D in both cases

59 FPS means mostly that your vertical screen synch is enabled. You can disable/enable it by pressing F8.
check on the about dialog if VSynch is ON or OFF.

> but video looked like slideshow, probably encoded with very low FPS...

You are right the Loonix.ogg video is encoded with only 5 fps. So it look like a slideshow.

> Quite possibly. :) There is no visible indication as to whether
> smoothing is on or off.

Yes you are right, I have to add a configuration dialog or at least display shortly "smoothing on" or "smoothing off". Currently you can check if smooth is enabled or not on the about dialog (Smoothing(ON or OFF)).

> Got it. Ran it.
>
> On one of my testing .OGG files, the difference seemed to be at most 1
> additional frame/sec.
> On the other, it went up by an extra 20 fps ! With or without smoothing,
> it ran at 35 fps.
> Remarkable !
>
> It seems the effect depends on the quality of the .OGG file. At low
> frame-rate, there is not a lot of improvement available, but with high
> frame-rates there is a noticeable improvement.

I guess, on the case where there isn't a true difference with/without vesamtrrr, that the true bottle-neck is the ogg decoding/YUV2RGB conversion.
In this case you can increase the fps by enabling FAST YUV2RGB (F2) but video quality will be low.

> Up to 9 screenshot from DUGLPLYR.BMP to DUGLPLYZ.BMP

Great

> Many cleaning to the source code.



> Frame dropping

Hope it is optional only.

> (a must have for slow computers)

Well, depends. MPLAYER will slow down the video showing all frames, letting the sound to run away, and when sound is done it keeps repeating last cca 1/2 sec until the video is played also. VLC (non-DOS, OTOH 100% Windaube-7 compliant) will "play" in real-time but drop frame after frame, and since every frame is behind scheduled time when it arrives, it displays no frames at all, leaving just a black rectangle or the very earliest frame frozen.

So DUGLPLAYER can't beat MPLAYER or VLC by amount of features or supported formats or codecs, but it can well beat them by behavior on slow PC's

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> > Frame dropping
>
> Hope it is optional only.

There is a boolean set to true. Currently always enabled as there is no keyboard shortcut to disable it.
There is an urgent need for a config dialog.

> So DUGLPLAYER can't beat MPLAYER or VLC by amount of features or supported
> formats or codecs, but it can well beat them by behavior on slow PC's

I don't have a very slow computer to test. But i guess that frame dropping will end to be like VLC if the computer isn't enough fast to get a frame at the good time. I think that you have this kind of computer, So it will be nice to hear that DUGL PLayer is better than VLC or MPLAYER on this

What's new :
- Fixed the theora offset bug
- Fixed the screenshot bug
- Added F10 keyboard-shortcut to enable/disable frame dropping
- Frame dropping turned off by default at startup
- Added the fastest ever ( :-p ) MMX YUV2RGB16 assembly routine with more than 50% speed improvement over the old C version. (I'm curious about speed improvement on slow computers)

DUGL Player 0.4 alpha 3

This isn't the final 0.4 alfa 3 version but feedbacks are still welcome

> What's new :
> - Fixed the theora offset bug
> - Fixed the screenshot bug
> - Added F10 keyboard-shortcut to enable/disable frame dropping
> - Frame dropping turned off by default at startup
> - Added the fastest ever ( :-p ) MMX YUV2RGB16 assembly routine with more
> than 50% speed improvement over the old C version. (I'm curious about
> speed improvement on slow computers)

COOL

> mediafire.com / ? dkyj3yldjmj

http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a0503736/php/drdoswiki/uploads/Main/dplay043.zip

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http://v2v.cc/~j/theora_testsuite/ducks_take_off_444_720p25.ogg

---
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Is there any way to compile this new YUV2RGB16 assembly code into the old DUGL 0.30 which supports MPEG2? I really miss the old .mpeg support! Yes, I know we have MPLAYER, but the (old) support in DUGL was wonderful!

Anyone who can help me out in getting the faster YUV2RGB code into 0.3? Is it even possible?

By the way, is a later version of MPLAYER DGJPP version available anywhere? Latest I have is from 2008!

> Is there any way to compile this new YUV2RGB16 assembly code into the old
> DUGL 0.30 which supports MPEG2?

On DUGL Player 0.30 it was LIBMPEG2 who make the conversion YUV2RGB. So I'm not sure how to reuse the new YUV2RGB16 code as I haven't looked to LIBMPEG2 source code.

> I really miss the old .mpeg support!

I'm not a lawyer but LIBMPEG2 is GPLed lib but not DUGL lib. So I guess that
we need a special license from LIBMPEG2 authors to be able to use it.
Another solution will be to find another not GPLed lib to decode MPEG.

> Yes, I know we have MPLAYER, but the (old) support in DUGL was wonderful!

Thanks

> Anyone who can help me out in getting the faster YUV2RGB code into 0.3? Is
> it even possible?

Do you have performance problem playing MPEG on DUGL Player 0.3 ?
On my P4 D923 3Ghz, most MPEGs play at not less than 900fps.

> Is there any way to compile this new YUV2RGB16 assembly code into the old
> DUGL 0.30 which supports MPEG2? I really miss the old .mpeg support!

MPEG1/2 is dead :rip:

> By the way, is a later version of MPLAYER DGJPP version available
> anywhere? Latest I have is from 2008!

Me too

2009-12-20 "MPLAYER update (Win32, tests needed)"

2009-01-10 "Mik's page online"

---
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the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

What's new :
- Faster YUV2RGB16 assembler MMX routine
- Added 422YUV2RGB16 assembler MMX routine
- Added Frame dropping option on menu
- Optimized all frame decoding function 444, 422 and 420
- Removed the mouse requirement
- Fixed keyboard reactivity bug on very low fps
- Changed screenshot keyboard shortcut to Alt+S
- Changed Dialog File to filter by default first *.ogv
- Removed Fast YUV2RGB as MMX routines are now faster
- Added Interpolate UV option with F2 shortcut, disable at start-up
- Added documentation DUGLPLAY.TXT contributed by DOS386

DUGL PLayer 0.4 alpha4

Now DUGL Player is enough fast/ready to receive sound support. but no promises when this will happen

> [deadlink=http://www.mediafire.com/?jtgkjjgxq44]DUGL PLayer 0.4 alpha4[/deadlink]

http://freefile.kristopherw.us/uploads/temp/dplay044.zip 0.44 latest

http://freefile.kristopherw.us/uploads/temp/dplay043.zip 0.43 for regression tests

> Added documentation DUGLPLAY.TXT contributed by DOS386

Written 1/2 years ago, needs updates and fixes

FFK wrote:

> What's new :
> - Faster YUV2RGB16 assembler MMX routine

COOL, but:

FFK didn't write:

> - Reduced B L O A T of the EXE (UPX'ed) from 156 KiB to 146 KiB

FFK wrote (long ago):

> - playing video at full res : currently high-res videos are downsampled to 640x480

What exactly do you mean with "full res" ? Imagine a 3'000 x 2'000 video, how to get "full res" ?

But other related idea: add option "Don't ZOOM up video if too small" - so if smaller than 640x480 (full) or cca 620x390 (unfull) then show it 1:1 centered in the area

I haven't tested 0.44 yet (untested mirror again) ... but I will

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

> http://freefile.kristopherw.us/uploads/temp/dplay044.zip 0.44
> latest

I will add this link to the project page. Thanks for the mirror :)

> http://freefile.kristopherw.us/uploads/temp/dplay043.zip 0.43 for
> regression tests
>
> > Added documentation DUGLPLAY.TXT contributed by DOS386
>
> Written 1/2 years ago, needs updates and fixes


I have updated it according last version, but any revision/update is welcome.

> > - Reduced B L O A T of the EXE (UPX'ed) from 156 KiB to 146 KiB

This is mainly thanks to UPX option "--ultra-brute". But maybe the removal of the fast yuv2rgb, and the fact that the new mmx routine is smaller by 100 bytes contributed also on this.

> FFK wrote (long ago):
>
> > - playing video at full res : currently high-res videos are downsampled
> to 640x480

This mainly mean using a higher resolution or scrolling, but you are right no solution for 3'000x2'000 video.

>
> But other related idea: add option "Don't ZOOM up video if too small" - so
> if smaller than 640x480 (full) or cca 620x390 (unfull) then show it 1:1
> centered in the area
>

Yes good idea to disable fitting, specially for small video.

> I haven't tested 0.44 yet (untested mirror again) ... but I will

I'm waiting for your feedback

> any revision/update is welcome.

Let me know when preparing next release

> This mainly mean using a higher resolution or scrolling,

Scrolling would be cool, higher resolution would mean painful mode switch after opening the file and parsing the headers. Or just let the user select manually (as long as available) 640x480 (default) or 800x600 or 1024x768.

> I'm waiting for your feedback

No thorough test but seems to work well

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