DOS ain't dead

I just found there was some recent release of NDN 3.0 for DOS32/64/Win32/64/Linux32/64. It also includes some Unicode version. I tested Linux version and works fine, (I had some problems with some key combinations in older version). One thing I'm still missing in NDN is serial terminal with modem support. Old good DN had superior terminal (linux still have not such one, only craps like minicom, cutecom...)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_wEiYjzVkC0ZGtkbENENzF1Nms

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_wEiYjzVkC0ZGtkbENENzF1Nms

Also here from NDN's site: http://ndn.muxe.com/download/

- Doug B.

I am almost feeling embarrassed that I normaly use the old good Volkov commander and not this NDN
One -rather feature than bug- in NDN is the ignorance of the DOS keyboard driver.
If I switch to Czech keyboard driver I can in all DOS textmode programs write our chars like C-with-carron, E-with-acute. But not in the NDN. It still produces the default BIOS-like chars.

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DOS-u-akbar!

Same here with the Hungarian letters, but not just with them. NDN doesn't even recognize some kestrokes at all (seems to ignore any letter that can be extended with a deadkey). It is not normally a problem for me because it only stands for some letters and th, otherwise, with just 4 additional .dll files, the W32 version runs on DOS as well, that gets the scancode from the HX API and works well.

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DOS isn't about why. It's about why not.

> I just found there was some recent release of NDN 3.0 for
> DOS32/64/Win32/64/Linux32/64. It also includes some Unicode version. I
> tested Linux version and works fine, (I had some problems with some key
> combinations in older version). One thing I'm still missing in NDN is
> serial terminal with modem support. Old good DN had superior terminal
> (linux still have not such one, only craps like minicom, cutecom...)
>
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_wEiYjzVkC0ZGtkbENENzF1Nms

I saw in the notes that a few years back he switched to FPC for win32.

It would be interesting to know what compilers (and -versions) he uses for each target.

> If I switch to Czech keyboard driver I can in all DOS textmode programs
> write our chars like C-with-carron, E-with-acute. But not in the NDN. It
> still produces the default BIOS-like chars.

I took your suggestions and changed the keyboard driver to a more "friendly" in version 3.00.0003 for now released only on google drive.

> It would be interesting to know what compilers (and -versions) he uses for
> each target.

If you run NDN and switch to DOS background (CTRL+O) you will see some info about version, used compiler, OS etc.
e.g. DOS32 version prints: [DEFINES/CPU86/CPU87/DPMI32/VIRTUALPASCAL]
WIN32-F: [DEFINES/CPU86/CPU87/FREEPASCAL/WIN32]
WIN32: [DEFINES/CPU86/CPU87/VIRTUALPASCAL/WIN32/LARGEFILES]
not sure what are all differences between W32 and F32 versions...

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

I use KEV 1.50 (Keyboard EGA/VGA TSR) and now it works OK with latest version - I can switch CZ/US KB via ALT+SHIFT and the font is also changed under NDN.
Thanks.

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

> What are all differences between W32 and F32 versions...

The F32 (FreePascal) version for example has Big Calculator which uses the Int64/QWord types that are missing in Virtual Pascal.

OK.
BTW would be possible to include serial terminal program in NDN? Why it was dropped from DN-OSP? It should not be so hard to port it to win32 and linux but it would be even nice to have it in DOS version only for the beginning.

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

> I use KEV 1.50 (Keyboard EGA/VGA TSR) and now it works OK with latest
> version - I can switch CZ/US KB via ALT+SHIFT and the font is also changed
> under NDN.
> Thanks.

Yes! I use another display/keyboard driver and now it works for me too. Good work!

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DOS-u-akbar!

A few more question to NDN:

1) how do I configure aplhabetical file sort by name in panels?
When I select ALT+B - Name, then files are alphabetically sorted but by extension first, then by name, e.g. x.bat is before a.exe because bat is before exe. I want classic sort by name where a.exe will be before x.bat

2) when I use hexadecimal file edit (F3) and press 0 on numeric keyboard it will insert 00 byte instead overwriting the currernt byte. It happens regardless NumLock is on or off. The same happen when I press Insert key - that is probably intended but 0 on numeric keyboard when numlock is on is probably a bug.

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

> I want classic sort by name where a.exe will be before x.bat

You have to press Alt-S (Setup Panel) and disable option Sort by group index.

> 2) when I use hexadecimal file edit (F3) and press 0 on numeric keyboard it
> will insert 00 byte instead overwriting the currernt byte. It happens
> regardless NumLock is on or off. The same happen when I press Insert key -
> that is probably intended but 0 on numeric keyboard when numlock is on is
> probably a bug.

Insert key in file viewer, when mode is not text, inserts a zero byte at current position.
Now keycode of insert key on numeric keyboard when numlock is on is different from the keycode when numlock is off (was fixed in unofficial version 3.00.0003 on my google drive).

Thanks.

Hi,
ad 1) - yes, that was the right option
ad 2) - the problem with insert/0 is in version 3.00.0003 that I got for testing national keyboard driver (now OK) or did you silently reupload version 3.00.0003 by newer? You can send me some debug program that will prints the scancode. Win32 version doesn't have this issue so it's related with DOS kbd driver.

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

To see the code of the pressed key, select in NDN from the menu
Options->Configuration->System Setup->Advanced Options->Show Keycode.

Additionally, you can download the debug program from here:
https://megawrzuta.pl/download/30f809c26cb2b21fe24ad5037cbfc2d0.html

Hi, KEYCODE.EXE works as expected
00005200 -> 00005200 - insert
00005200 -> 00005200 - insert numeric (num off)
00005230 -> 00005230 - 0 numeric (num on)
00000B30 -> 00000B30 - 0

I then downloaded the NDN package v3003 again from googledrive and it works now. My old NDN.PRG was dated 17.3.2020 and new is 1.4.2020 so it's solved now.

BTW I would rename the file SHOWSPACE.XLT to SHOWSPAC.XLT in DOS version to avoid LFN.

And please could you tell me your attitude to integrated serial terminal? Is it on "roadmap" or there are serious problems with porting it from DN OSP?

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

> And please could you tell me your attitude to integrated serial terminal?
> Is it on "roadmap" or there are serious problems with porting it from DN
> OSP?
Unfortunately, I do not plan to move the serial terminal from DN Open Source Project to NDN. Porting this 16-bit code to 32-bit would be a bit difficult.

Could you test below DN version?
https://megawrzuta.pl/download/3d2d845c93d1f500f596a5c8ce82654d.html

> Unfortunately, I do not plan to move the serial terminal from DN Open
> Source Project to NDN. Porting this 16-bit code to 32-bit would be a bit
> difficult.

I think handling a serial port should not be hard even in pmode. Some years ago I wrote simple GPS-NMEA logger in DJGPP that use serial port ISR. Settiong COM port params via I/O registers should not differ in PM vs RM...

> Could you test below DN version?
> https://megawrzuta.pl/download/3d2d845c93d1f500f596a5c8ce82654d.html

It crashed WinXP NTVDM (both versions) maybe due to compression? Reboot to DOS later...

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

I tried to unpack it with LUNPACK and LLZSS but failed, cannot find CW3P.
Uder DOS and Win98 it started normally. Is there something new or just rebuild?

The default DOS DN that I use is:

         Dos Navigator Open Source         
       Version 7.2.16/DOS/Piwamoto,
   Compiled Fri, 16 Feb 2007 at 21:20:14   
            http://www.dnosp.com       
           http://beta.dnosp.com           


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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Could you test these DN versions. I have added changes made by Piwamoto. These are the DPMI versions for which RTM.EXE and DPMI16BI.OVL files are not needed.

https://megawrzuta.pl/download/6b86b78f4c1408b15d6deec7dc6ec4c4.html

Unfortunatelly all 3 versions still crashes the NTVDM of WinXP
http://www.rayer.g6.cz/1tmp/dn-err.png
So it's seems not be caused by compression...

And under DOS there's a problem with saving settings. When I set detailed panel with sorting, save desktop, exit DN and run again it will crash immediatelly, creating DN.ERR:

<---- 05-04-2020  22:19:14 >----
EXCEPTION #08
ADDR:05681237
PtrS:01401237
Byte:08C07405B0018846FFA152C225010009
<---- 05-04-2020  22:19:16 >----
EXCEPTION #08
ADDR:001F00C9
PtrS:010000C9
Byte:76389A8B01E00A2B06541B1B16561B83
<---- 05-04-2020  22:19:26 >----
EXCEPTION #08
ADDR:0F461FF6
PtrS:01901FF6
Byte:A12E210B0630217544C47E0689F88CC2


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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Now I have changed dos extender to CauseWay. Test this version yet.

https://megawrzuta.pl/download/eac4ad1840287ec54dffba4e2680d7c8.html

Yeah, this is better, this version runs under WinXP. But it crashes under WinNT4 while Piwamoto runs OK:

H:\DNTEST\DN>CauseWay DOS Extender v4.01 No copyright. Public domain software.
No rights retained.

Exception: 0D, Error code: 0000

EAX=00F01557 EBX=0000E110 ECX=00000000 EDX=00001557 ESI=021900D7
EDI=0000E65D EBP=000036C8 ESP=000036C2 EIP=000034ED EFL=00003252

CS=00C7-xxxxxxxx DS=00B7-xxxxxxxx ES=00D7-xxxxxxxx
FS=01E7-xxxxxxxx GS=0DAF-xxxxxxxx SS=00B7-xxxxxxxx

CR0=00000000 CR2=00000000 CR3=00000000 TR=0000

Info flags=0000C019

Writing CW.ERR file....

CauseWay error 09 : Unrecoverable exception. Program terminated.


It also runs under MSDOS and Win98. I'd like that I can use one binary for the most of systems as possible as supported by old DN.

I also observed it has not problem with large number of files in a directory while Piwamoto's had. My WinXP system32 directory contains ~2300 files and Piwamoto's DN showed only ~1750 and displayed not enough memory while this version show all files without problem.

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Another two DN versions to test. I've corrected some bugs. I tested on WinNT4 on a virtual machine. It works for me.
I have also added a (de)compression program (his name CW3P).

https://megawrzuta.pl/download/621224942c11404c0f169bc16117efce.html

I still got a Causeway crash on 1st run under NT but when try again it worked (both packed and unpacked version). I newer got such crash from Piwamoto version as it probably use different extender.
When I try tu run serial teminal it hangs under NT and I have to force close it. It runs OK under XP and DOS.

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

I confirm everything you wrote in the last post. Unfortunately, for some reason WinNT4 has problems releasing previously allocated DOS memory (the Int31.0101 function generates exception 0xD) while everything works on other systems.
I will still try to do something about it.

OK, good to know the problem is reproducible on your system too.

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

I have corrected several more bugs in DN. I changed the DOS memory allocation method. The serial terminal also works for me. I encourage you to test.

https://megawrzuta.pl/download/71b998d626789c9b58c1de003ed2c721.html

> I have corrected several more bugs in DN. I changed the DOS memory
> allocation method. The serial terminal also works for me. I encourage you
> to test.
>
> https://megawrzuta.pl/download/71b998d626789c9b58c1de003ed2c721.html

Also @RayeR: Feel free to continue posting to DaD. But I just want to remind you, that e-mail, chat, or messaging do also exist.

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Forum admin

Today I tried your DOS 64-bit version of NDN and I was surprised how amazingly it works! I thought that the DOS-64 bersion is rather a proof of concept or techdemo but no - it is normaly working program
But on the other hand, the "normal" 32-bit version on the same computer crashes in the startup (before anything appears on the screen).
(core i7, 16GB RAM, HimemX loaded, without JEMM386)

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DOS-u-akbar!

> But on the other hand, the "normal" 32-bit version on the same computer
> crashes in the startup (before anything appears on the screen).

Have you tried running help compiler (tvhc.exe) or resource compiler (rcp.exe)? Do they also crashes?
Try running NDN.COM with the /NOEMU, /NOMOUSE switch and delete files with the extension .cfg, .dsk, .his, .ini before run.

> Try running NDN.COM with the /NOEMU, /NOMOUSE switch and delete files with
> the extension .cfg, .dsk, .his, .ini before run.

Thanks! The advice about deleting the configuration files helped. Now it works too!
(I had the NDN directory transfered from other computer, so it is quite logical that it made such problems)

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DOS-u-akbar!

64-bit stuff under DOS is amazing but I see the most disadvantage is that it doesn't run under V86 mode (or at least cannot change modes during runtime) and I use JEMMEX V86 as default DOS sesstion, only for a few special cases I need to boot in realmode with himem. So I prefer DOS 32-bit version and I think the impact od 64-bit on performance is 0.000...% anyway :)

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Don't forget that you can load and unload the JEMM386 (it means V86 mode) in DOS prompt via "JEMM386 load/unload"
And also - it would be nive to have a GEMMIS interface in JEMM386 which allows the V86 enabling/disabling from just program, independently to user.

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DOS-u-akbar!

I barely remmeber that JEMM can be loaded/unloaded at runtime but I rather load it from config.sys, I think it has positive effect to amount of free lowmem.
What is GEMMIS interface? I probadbly never heard about...

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.