DOS ain't dead - UMBs etc.

w3a537

Colorado Springs CO USA,
25.08.2016, 02:23

UMBs etc. (Announce)

I used to log on here regularly.
I'm back for some expert DOS help.

First: I have been maintaining a DOS system as far back as
1985 and updating it regularly. This time when I upgraded
and put MSDOS 8 in a partition on my I5 dual boot system I
found this hardware too new for UMBPCI. To get my UMB's back
I tried JEMM386 and JEMMEX.

When loading or installing either in config.sys they either
of them don't work instead just spraying the screen with
random characters forever.

JEMMEX loads ok from a COMMAND prompt but that is much too
late to load drivers high.

Does anyone know what I can do to get some UMBs back.

Second: For info I am a Windows Insider and have W10RS2 running
very fine on my I3,\.

Third: I and two other people are trying to help the REACTOS
people with a problem in their FREELOADER which bombs out on
say 20% of the new users who try to boot REACTOS from DVD.

Go to REACTOS.ORG SUPPORT FREELOADER QUESTION for a very interesting
(?#!) read. I am Cirrus One on their forum.

C1

RayeR

CZ,
25.08.2016, 18:27

@ w3a537

UMBs etc.

Post reply

> and put MSDOS 8 in a partition on my I5 dual boot system I
> found this hardware too new for UMBPCI.

Which PCH chipset is on your MB?
I have Gigabyte P67 with i7 Sandybridge CPU and UMBPCI works there. The only Issue it has it when I soft-reboot via CTRL+ALT+DEL the system hangs with black screen and POST doesn't start. I have to press HW reset button. This behavior was also on previous C2D with intel P31.

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

tom

Germany (West),
26.08.2016, 13:25

@ w3a537

UMBs etc.

Post reply

> First: I have been maintaining a DOS system as far back as
> 1985 and updating it regularly. This time when I upgraded
> and put MSDOS 8 in a partition on my I5 dual boot system I
> found this hardware too new for UMBPCI. To get my UMB's back
> I tried JEMM386 and JEMMEX.
>
> When loading or installing either in config.sys they either
> of them don't work instead just spraying the screen with
> random characters forever.
>
> JEMMEX loads ok from a COMMAND prompt but that is much too
> late to load drivers high.
>
> Does anyone know what I can do to get some UMBs back.

when running MSDOS, you are supposed to run MS EMM386.
I don't think (J)EMM386 was ever tested on MSDOS

> Second: For info I am a Windows Insider and have W10RS2 running
> very fine on my I3,\.
wow. I'm impressed. a real Insider.

> Third: I and two other people are trying to help the REACTOS
> people with a problem in their FREELOADER which bombs out on
> say 20% of the new users who try to boot REACTOS from DVD.
>
> Go to REACTOS.ORG SUPPORT FREELOADER QUESTION for a very interesting
> (?#!) read. I am Cirrus One on their forum.
yes, very interesting indeed.
in all this exchange you never found the time to report what #define you are talking about.

>
> C1

Rugxulo

Usono,
26.08.2016, 18:15

@ tom

UMBs etc.

Post reply

> > and put MSDOS 8 in a partition on my I5 dual boot system I
> > found this hardware too new for UMBPCI. To get my UMB's back
> > I tried JEMM386 and JEMMEX.
> >
> > When loading or installing either in config.sys they either
> > of them don't work instead just spraying the screen with
> > random characters forever.
>
> when running MSDOS, you are supposed to run MS EMM386.
> I don't think (J)EMM386 was ever tested on MSDOS

Try using "X=TEST I=TEST". I don't know why that was never the default.

But even that may not help. Apparently ultra-modern machines don't like EMM386 as much as older ones. In the readme somewhere, there's supposed to be an ultra-safe setting for testing. If that doesn't work, then your machine is incompatible, and you're out of luck.

(Though I think there is some obscure situation where Ulrich still prefers FD EMM386 before it became JEMM. So you could always try that old one.)

BTW, if using JEMMEX unsuccessfully, do try JEMM386 instead (and vice versa).

But this is the kind of thing I meant, Tom. It's probably not going to work for some people, and thus it's too arcane to pretend to support everything. Most people don't need it anyways. It can still be included but shouldn't be loaded or recommended "by default".

tom

Germany (West),
26.08.2016, 18:38

@ Rugxulo

UMBs etc.

Post reply

> > > and put MSDOS 8 in a partition on my I5 dual boot system I
> > > found this hardware too new for UMBPCI. To get my UMB's back
> > > I tried JEMM386 and JEMMEX.
> > >
> > > When loading or installing either in config.sys they either
> > > of them don't work instead just spraying the screen with
> > > random characters forever.
> >
> > when running MSDOS, you are supposed to run MS EMM386.
> > I don't think (J)EMM386 was ever tested on MSDOS
>
> Try using "X=TEST I=TEST". I don't know why that was never the default.
X=TEST I=TEST should indeed be the default

>
> But even that may not help. Apparently ultra-modern machines don't like
> EMM386 as much as older ones.

the poster has not made it clear if this is because of modern hardware, or because of MSDOS 8

> But this is the kind of thing I meant, Tom. It's probably not going to work
> for some people, and thus it's too arcane to pretend to support everything.
> Most people don't need it anyways.
I disagree. Having ~128 K more memory can be fairly significant in DOS.

and it DOES work for most people.

w3a537 Colorado Springs CO USA, 26.08.2016, 20:16 @ tom	UMBs etc. Post reply
	It is a combination of DOS 98/ME and my I5 machine. I wouldn't know which is the root. Probably the combination. I use DOS now for system maintenance mostly. It is still important to have.

w3a537 Colorado Springs CO USA, 26.08.2016, 20:11 @ Rugxulo	UMBs etc. Post reply
	My situation is with UMBPCI. Is X=TEST I=TEST for UMBPCI? JEMMEX JEMM386 and EMM386 all fail.

Rugxulo

Usono,
26.08.2016, 22:12

@ w3a537

UMBs etc.

Post reply

> My situation is with UMBPCI.

Email the author privately. He's not here.

> Is X=TEST I=TEST for UMBPCI?

No.

> JEMMEX JEMM386 and EMM386 all fail.

Try this:

>> 7. Troubleshooting, Hints
>>
>> * If Jemm halts or reboots the machine, the following combinations
>> of parameters may help to find the reason. Generally, Jemm386 should be
>> loaded immediately after the XMM (HIMEMX.EXE, HIMEM.SYS), and the XMM
>> itself should be the first device driver to be loaded. For testing, it
>> might also help to prevent DOS from loading in the HMA and/or not to
>> use UMBs at all.
>>
>> - X=A000-FFFF NOHI NOVME NOINVLPG
>>
>> This is the safest combination. If this doesn't work, Jemm most
>> likely isn't compatible with the current DOS/BIOS.
>>
>> - X=TEST NOHI NOVME NOINVLPG
>>
>> This is slightly less safe, since Jemm will scan the upper memory
>> region to find "unused" address ranges usable for UMBs. If this
>> doesn't work, one has to manually set X=xxxx-yyyy to finally
>> find the region which causes the troubles. Tool MEMSTAT may be used
>> to find the address region which is reserved for the ROM-BIOS.

w3a537

Colorado Springs CO USA,
26.08.2016, 20:05

@ tom

UMBs etc.

Post reply

It is a #defined constant in this module that determines the
size of certain arrays used in what I think are BIOS calls.

On some systems the set value and thus the array sizes must be
above a certain value on other systems below or FREELOADER fails
and boot fails on both the LIVE and INSTALL dvds.

If it fails when a new person tries to boot a LIVE dvd for the
first time they usually just go away. Myself and two others are
trying to figure it out.

It is difficult because FREELOADER appears to be a standalone
program with no underlying OS. Attempts to turn on debugging
or just put in some extra write statements have so far failed.

There are posts reporting this EXACT problem as far back as
2009 YES 2009.

w3a537 Colorado Springs CO USA, 26.08.2016, 20:19 @ tom	UMBs etc. Post reply
	Whether you say DOS or MSDOS it is just plain Microsoft DOS 98 and ME.

tom

Germany (West),
27.08.2016, 14:38
(edited by Rugxulo, 27.08.2016, 21:41)

@ w3a537

UMBs etc.

Post reply

> Whether you say DOS or MSDOS it is just plain
> Microsoft DOS 98 and ME.

Tell "w3a537" on BTTR to try Windows 98/SE,
not 98/ME. "ME" (MS-DOS V8.0) uses its own built-in V3.99
HIMEM and likely expects its own EMM386 as well. The last
HIMEM offered for systems up to V7.1 MS-DOS was V3.95, thus
I am not surprised JEMM386/JEMMEX and the last V4.95 EMM386
offered thru V7.1 MS-DOS would all FAIL with "ME".

"SE" (MS-DOS V7.1) works fine with my XMGR and JEMM386. I
got both the "SE" and "ME" files at <www.ebay.com>, and
I had no trouble with "SE". I can even substitute Lucho's
"LZ-DOS" kernel and COMMAND.COM (also V7.1) on the diskette
and everything still ran without errors.

Jack R. Ellis

w3a537 Colorado Springs CO USA, 27.08.2016, 22:09 @ tom	UMBs etc. Post reply
	Sorry a terminology problem on my part. When I said 98/me I should have said both 710 and 800 because I tested on both. The symptoms are the same. Could the difference between my and your hardware be why it fails on my machine? I will try LZDOS. Thank you W3

w3a537 Colorado Springs CO USA, 28.08.2016, 04:00 @ w3a537	UMBs etc. Post reply
	I have tested jemm386 again on 710. It generates exception 0d 06 errors and possibly others. Does this mean anything to anyone? W3

w3a537 Colorado Springs CO USA, 28.08.2016, 22:52 @ w3a537	UMBs etc. Post reply
	I got JEMM386 working with the NOVDS I=TEST X=TEST parameters. HIMEMX was loaded before of course. However now all my device drivers that could previously be loaded high under HIMEMX alone hang the system now and must be loaded low. But INSTALLGIGH works fine. The net gain is only 3KB. Suggestions are welcome before I remove JEMM from my PC. W3