DOS ain't dead - Baremetal OS

Laaca

Czech republic,
13.02.2011, 19:57

Baremetal OS (Users)

On DOS I like the minimalism. Unfortunately it is very tight associated with real mode what causes problems.

Yesterday I found a link onto Baremetal OS which is minimalistic like DOS but works in 64-bit mode.
I know, nothing usable for DOS users but it is cute.
Baremetal OS

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DOS-u-akbar!

ecm

Düsseldorf, Germany,
13.02.2011, 21:05

@ Laaca

Baremetal OS

Post reply

Ah, but it is interesting. And it apparently includes its full source code under the 3-clause BSD license. (I remember that Pure64 (the boot loader) wasn't free before, and in fact the site still claims it to be proprietary in some places, but it is free now.)

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l

RayeR

CZ,
13.02.2011, 22:37
(edited by RayeR, 13.02.2011, 23:06)

@ Laaca

Baremetal OS

Post reply

> Yesterday I found a link onto Baremetal OS which is minimalistic like DOS
> but works in 64-bit mode.
> I know, nothing usable for DOS users but it is cute.
> Baremetal OS

Interesting, I know only about Menuet64 OS as something similar, I'll have a look...

Hmm... :)
Size Starting with a clean slate we can say goodbye to bloated code and feature creep! As of the current version with the full CLI and internal functions, the operating system binary is only 16384 bytes. A standard "Hello, World!" example compiles to a file of only 31 bytes.

Oh yes, it's very experimental. You can type a dir command and run helloworld so just for studying purposes.

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Dex

13.02.2011, 23:06

@ Laaca

Baremetal OS

Post reply

> On DOS I like the minimalism. Unfortunately it is very tight associated
> with real mode what causes problems.
>
> Yesterday I found a link onto Baremetal OS which is minimalistic like DOS
> but works in 64-bit mode.
> I know, nothing usable for DOS users but it is cute.
> Baremetal OS

Nice, link thanks

But i think there still room for a 32bit Dos, that has all the normal int 21h function, but runs in 32bit PM.

You can find it in the fasm forum under Dos32, if anyone wants to test it.

RayeR

CZ,
13.02.2011, 23:12

@ Dex

Baremetal OS

Post reply

> But i think there still room for a 32bit Dos, that has all the normal int
> 21h function, but runs in 32bit PM.
>
> You can find it in the fasm forum under Dos32, if anyone wants to test it.

I know FreeDOS-32 0.0.5 but it seems dead for a long time. As already discused here simply too few people interested in DOS today (as you can see also on "rapid" development of 16bit FreeDOS). Maybe it would be better improve DOSBOX, BTW I had a look at new 0.74 and can see it now support pentium :)

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Dex

13.02.2011, 23:46

@ RayeR

Baremetal OS

Post reply

> > But i think there still room for a 32bit Dos, that has all the normal
> int
> > 21h function, but runs in 32bit PM.
> >
> > You can find it in the fasm forum under Dos32, if anyone wants to test
> it.
>
> I know FreeDOS-32 0.0.5 but it seems dead for a long time. As already
> discused here simply too few people interested in DOS today (as you can see
> also on "rapid" development of 16bit FreeDOS). Maybe it would be better
> improve DOSBOX, BTW I had a look at new 0.74 and can see it now support
> pentium :)

As you said FreeDos32 is dead, but i thought there was a need for a 32bit Dos.
So i coded one, but no bodly use it :(.

See here: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=12498

Sorry if this is spaming.

Japheth

Germany (South),
14.02.2011, 08:20

@ Dex

Baremetal OS

Post reply

> ... but i thought there was a need for a 32bit Dos.

A 32-bit DOS would be appreciated. However, DOS32 looks like a DOS extender...

> So i coded one, but no bodly use it :(.

Thanks, I will test it! It has to compete with HX's HDPMI32, though.

> Sorry if this is spaming.

No.

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MS-DOS forever!

RayeR

CZ,
14.02.2011, 14:27

@ Dex

Baremetal OS

Post reply

> As you said FreeDos32 is dead, but i thought there was a need for a 32bit
> Dos.
> So i coded one, but no bodly use it :(.
>
> See here: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=12498
>
> Sorry if this is spaming.

Could you please place the download somewhere else for those who are not registered on forum?

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Dex

14.02.2011, 18:40

@ RayeR

Baremetal OS

Post reply

> > As you said FreeDos32 is dead, but i thought there was a need for a
> 32bit
> > Dos.
> > So i coded one, but no bodly use it :(.
> >
> > See here: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=12498
> >
> > Sorry if this is spaming.
>
> Could you please place the download somewhere else for those who are not
> registered on forum?

I have upploaded it to a tmp site, the Dos32.zip has a floppy image with freedos and Dos32 on and some demo apps, eg: fasm, this ver is for emulators (i have tested only in QEMU)

http://www.dex.asm4u.net/Dos32/

For real PC you need Dos32PC.zip which you just need to add the files to any Dos floppy, usb, hdd, you have, but it must be a pure Dos with no Extended memory set.
You just run Dos32.exe from the dos prompt.

Note: theres also a simple GUI (see screen shots), and the GUI is not finished.

And i agree HDPMI32 is a great peace of code, but Dos32 (will be called Dos2x) is unlike a Dos extender in that theres not any setting up of the 32bit environment and you do not need 31h (from a coders point).

NOTE: theres a full TCP/IP stack implemented.
And thing like jpeg, png, decoders.

Japheth

Germany (South),
14.02.2011, 19:37

@ Dex

Baremetal OS

Post reply

> For real PC you need Dos32PC.zip which you just need to add the files to
> any Dos floppy, usb, hdd, you have, but it must be a pure Dos with no
> Extended memory set.
> You just run Dos32.exe from the dos prompt.

I tested this version on a real PC.

Test machine: 1024MB, MSDOS 7.1, native ( without Himem ),
NVIDEA Geforce FX 5200 (128MB)

After DOS32 is launched, some text ( blue on black ) is shown, including a copyright msg. Then a prompt appears.

If I press just ENTER, an error msg is displayed, "invalid command" or something pretty much similar.

A "dir" does display the content of the current directory, then it "freezes".

If I enter "cd", "gui" or "vesa", it just "freezes".

So there is a severe problem.

> ... is unlike a Dos extender in that theres not any setting up of the
> 32bit environment and you do not need 31h (from a coders point).

Ok, but exactly this IS a DOS extender - providing int 21h in protected-mode. If you need to call int 31h, then it's just a DPMI host.

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MS-DOS forever!

Dex

14.02.2011, 21:05
(edited by Dex, 14.02.2011, 23:34)

@ Japheth

Baremetal OS

Post reply

> > For real PC you need Dos32PC.zip which you just need to add the files to
> > any Dos floppy, usb, hdd, you have, but it must be a pure Dos with no
> > Extended memory set.
> > You just run Dos32.exe from the dos prompt.
>
> I tested this version on a real PC.
>
> Test machine: 1024MB, MSDOS 7.1, native ( without Himem ),
> NVIDEA Geforce FX 5200 (128MB)
>
> After DOS32 is launched, some text ( blue on black ) is shown, including a
> copyright msg. Then a prompt appears.
>
> If I press just ENTER, an error msg is displayed, "invalid command" or
> something pretty much similar.
>
> A "dir" does display the content of the current directory, then it
> "freezes".
>
> If I enter "cd", "gui" or "vesa", it just "freezes".
>
> So there is a severe problem.
>
> > ... is unlike a Dos extender in that theres not any setting up of the
> > 32bit environment and you do not need 31h (from a coders point).
>
> Ok, but exactly this IS a DOS extender - providing int 21h in
> protected-mode. If you need to call int 31h, then it's just a DPMI host.

First thanks for testing and the debug report, it still in early stage of dev.

As for DPMI, I would call it a true DPMI, instead of the comity designed one ;)

[EDIT] Found the problem, it now works in all my test PC and emulators, using the same ver, you can get the fix ver here
http://www.dex.asm4u.net/Dos32/
[/EDIT]

RayeR

CZ,
19.02.2011, 01:00

@ Dex

Baremetal OS

Post reply

I tested newer version on my machine and all examples seems to work OK except the mouse in GUI - e.g. when I run CD player. Mouse sensitivity is set too high and it's very jumpy. I can move cursor right and up with some effort of slow movement but I cannot move left and down - it jumps all around.

I see the big disadvantage that I cannot run existing DOS programs under dos2x.
And if there are no programs the OS can be the best but is still dead.
If it could temporarly switch back to DOS when req. dos program it would be better. For this reason I'd rather keep loading from dos so user can start it later.

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

RayeR

CZ,
14.02.2011, 13:13
(edited by RayeR, 14.02.2011, 15:00)

@ Laaca

Baremetal OS

Post reply

Is it possible to instal Pure64 on real HW, I mean existing FAT16 partition?
I found there's source of bootsector but missing the instalation utility like sys.com which properly install bootsector code to existing partition. But I would rather if it can coexist with existing installed OSes which use NTLDR. I tried to add it in BOOT.INI but it ended up with blinking cursor. The same when I replaced ntldr by pure64.sys. Pure64 bootsector works some way different so it cannot be loaded by standard bootsector from DOS/Windows.

And what C compiler should I use for compiling C example payload for pure64?

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

DOS386

17.02.2011, 09:54

@ Laaca

Baremetal OS | 64-bit technologies

Post reply

> I know, nothing usable for DOS users but it is cute.

[image]

I like the ^^^ binary units of bloat :-)

Otherwise, I don't need it, as I have my own (superior) 64-bit technologies. My latest 64-bit integer output function compiles to just 240 Byte's and is fully 8086-compatible, and even worse, it's also already almost 8080-compatible and 6502-compatible too, so it's ready to be ported to even more state-of-the-art-ious processors in future :-)

(as you might already know, support of >4GiB-files is crucial for me :-) ).

> As you said FreeDos32 is dead, but i thought there was a need for a 32bit Dos.
> So i coded one, but no bodly use it

FreeDOS32 would be AFAIK an OS.

> See here: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=12498
> Sorry if this is spamming

No, not at all. It's a perfectly valid submission to the upgrade DOS challenge. :-)

> A 32-bit DOS would be appreciated. However, DOS32 looks like a DOS extender...

To me too.

> Thanks, I will test it! It has to compete with HX's HDPMI32, though.

Don't forget King Udo's DR-64 (or was it DR-32 only ???).

> I tested this version on a real PC.
> A "dir" does display the content of the current directory, then it "freezes".

You missed the hottest issue (except it was introduced by the "fix" released in the meantime).

> Found the problem, it now works in all my test PC and emulators, using
> the same ver, you can get the fix ver here http://www.dex.asm4u.net/Dos32

Downloaded and tested.

> MS-DOS forever!

Thanks, done !!!

Hot steps to reproduce:

1. Boot up bad old M$-DOG 6.21 (avoid HYMEM.SIS and M$EMM386.EXE, note that other versions might not work as expected)

2. Insert DEX's "freedos.img" floppy

3. Launch DOS2X.EXE

4. DIR

5. enjoy :clap:

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

Dex

17.02.2011, 20:05

@ DOS386

Baremetal OS | 64-bit technologies

Post reply

> > I know, nothing usable for DOS users but it is cute.
>
> [image]
>
> I like the ^^^ binary units of bloat :-)
>
> Otherwise, I don't need it, as I have my own (superior) 64-bit
> technologies. My latest 64-bit integer output function compiles to just 240
> Byte's and is fully 8086-compatible, and even worse, it's also
> already almost 8080-compatible and 6502-compatible too, so
> it's ready to be ported to even more state-of-the-art-ious processors in
> future :-)
>
> (as you might already know, support of >4GiB-files is crucial for me :-)
> ).
>
> > As you said FreeDos32 is dead, but i thought there was a need for a 32bit
> Dos.
> > So i coded one, but no bodly use it
>
> FreeDOS32 would be AFAIK an OS.
>
> > See here: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=12498
> > Sorry if this is spamming
>
> No, not at all. It's a perfectly valid submission to the upgrade
> DOS challenge. :-)
>
> > A 32-bit DOS would be appreciated. However, DOS32 looks like a DOS
> extender...
>
> To me too.
>
> > Thanks, I will test it! It has to compete with HX's HDPMI32, though.
>
> Don't forget King Udo's DR-64 (or was it DR-32 only ???).
>
> > I tested this version on a real PC.
> > A "dir" does display the content of the current directory, then it
> "freezes".
>
> You missed the hottest issue (except it was introduced by the "fix"
> released in the meantime).
>
> > Found the problem, it now works in all my test PC and emulators, using
> > the same ver, you can get the fix ver here
> http://www.dex.asm4u.net/Dos32
>
> Downloaded and tested.
>
> > MS-DOS forever!
>
> Thanks, done !!!
>
> Hot steps to reproduce:
>
> 1. Boot up bad old M$-DOG 6.21 (avoid HYMEM.SIS and M$EMM386.EXE, note that
> other versions might not work as expected)
>
> 2. Insert DEX's "freedos.img" floppy
>
> 3. Launch DOS2X.EXE
>
> 4. DIR
>
> 5. enjoy :clap:
Thanks DOS386(R) for testing .
Does the new ver work OK on your tests ?.

Note: only the dos file functions are done by DOS, the others are pm ver's of the dos functions,
and i have already done pm drivers for floppy, hdd etc, i will just convert the interface to be the same as the Dos file function, then you will be able run without booting from dos.

DOS386

18.02.2011, 05:12

@ Dex

Baremetal OS | 64-bit technologies | xx64 -> 65xx upgrade

Post reply

> Thanks DOS386(R) for testing
> Does the new ver work OK on your tests ?

Oops, updated, I'll test http://www.dex.asm4u.net/Dos32/ :-)

> Note: only the dos file functions are done by DOS

only the full file I/O ;-)

> the others are pm ver's of the dos functions

What other ? console ?

> and i have already done pm drivers for floppy, hdd etc, i will just convert
> the interface to be the same as the Dos file function, then you will be
> able run without booting from dos.

So you would turn your DOS extender into a FreeDOS32 clone.

But do you really have full file I/O reimplemented (partitions, FAT12/16/28, NTLFN (as your "freedos.img" has such), subdirectories, buffered read & write, file positionning, multiple files opened at same time, same file opened multiple times, oops, latter doesn't work in DOS either, but needed for multitaxing, ...).

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

Dex

18.02.2011, 20:43

@ DOS386

Baremetal OS | 64-bit technologies | xx64 -> 65xx upgrade

Post reply

Onething i have noticed, is Dos users (in most cases) are just too set in there ways, they do not like change and instead of working with codes who want to move Dos on.
They just moan about they do not have this, that and the other.

They are no good at coding them selfs, so have to put down anyone that is.
Just look at your comments about the 64bit OS.

I am leaving this list, i will not wast my time here anymore, i have a OS to code, that is everything that Dos is not.