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mr

11.12.2008, 18:27
(edited by mr, 11.12.2008, 19:10)
 

DosUSB licence and price (Users)

Simple out of curiosity I am asking.

http://www.georgpotthast.de/usb
http://www.georgpotthast.de/usb/licence.htm

price for commercial use is 500 EUR

price for source code is 1000 EUR. - probable without the right to release the source under a licence of personal choice?

Who is paying that?

Do you know anyone or any product which are based on DosUSB?

rr

Homepage E-mail

Berlin, Germany,
11.12.2008, 22:11

@ mr
 

DosUSB licence and price

> price for source code is 1000 EUR. - probable without the right to release
> the source under a licence of personal choice?

That would mean to buy all rights for just 1,000 EUR! No way, I think.

> Who is paying that?

You should ask Georg for that.

> Do you know anyone or any product which are based on DosUSB?

No.

DosUSB might get Georg some money, but it's still only one person's show. What if he loses interest? A FLOSS USB solution would be much better for problems similar to RayeR's. Dual licensing should be no problem.

---
Forum admin

RayeR

Homepage

CZ,
12.12.2008, 09:48

@ rr
 

DosUSB licence and price

> DosUSB might get Georg some money, but it's still only one person's show.
> What if he loses interest? A FLOSS USB solution would be much better for
> problems similar to RayeR's. Dual licensing should be no problem.

What is FLOSS USB solution?

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

ecm

Homepage E-mail

Düsseldorf, Germany,
12.12.2008, 13:20

@ RayeR
 

DosUSB licence and price

> What is FLOSS USB solution?

FLOSS means "Free and open source software" and there isn't yet such a free DOS USB driver.

---
l

Rugxulo

Homepage

Usono,
12.12.2008, 22:55

@ ecm
 

DosUSB licence and price

> > What is FLOSS USB solution?
>
> FLOSS means "Free and open source
> software" and there isn't yet such a free DOS USB driver.

DOS doesn't (AFAIK) have any big companies sponsoring its development. So we're stuck with what we can get.

P.S. You forgot the "L", which stands for "libre" (as in freedom), commonly used to refer to the GPL. The FSF/GNU dislikes the terminology "open source".

---
Know your limits.h

ecm

Homepage E-mail

Düsseldorf, Germany,
13.12.2008, 11:58

@ Rugxulo
 

DosUSB licence and price

> P.S. You forgot the "L", which stands for "libre" (as in freedom),
> commonly used to refer to the GPL. The FSF/GNU dislikes the terminology
> "open source".

I quoted the en.wikipedia.org article name ;-)

---
l

Rugxulo

Homepage

Usono,
13.12.2008, 22:31

@ ecm
 

DosUSB licence and price

> > P.S. You forgot the "L", which stands for "libre" (as in freedom),
> > commonly used to refer to the GPL. The FSF/GNU dislikes the terminology
> > "open source".
>
> I quoted the en.wikipedia.org article name ;-)

"Open Source" is a trademark, originally coined by Eric Raymond, I think. And it's more about businesses using software for their needs. Free/libre is often used because of the confusing meaning of free: free as in beer or free as in speech. The GPL is almost always free in both senses although you are encouraged to charge for the initial release (which can then still be copied ad infinitum). To them, it's less a goal for enterprise adoption than a movement to liberate themselves from what they consider unethical (as they often put it). Many people prefer BSD licenses over GPL due to disagreements over which is more free. But GPL is hugely popular, so we're all bound to run into it somewhere. Even the main three *BSD OSes use GCC for all their compiling needs (which since after 4.2.1 is GPLv3). And some people are less thrilled about v3 than v2, go figure, and I didn't think it was that different. Oh well.

P.S. I installed NetBSD 4.0.1 in VirtualBox yesterday (although had to turn on AMD V-x in BIOS else "Bad address" errors), and they use GCC 4.1.2. I think there is real resistance to upgrading to newer versions due to licensing. And I think OpenBSD is somewhat hoping to make PCC a more useful compiler for their needs eventually. (*BSD camps typically prefer nvi and something like mg2a or csh instead of GPL-compatible Vim and GNU Emacs and bash, respectively. NetBSD even uses its own homebrewed gzip.)

marcov

14.12.2008, 17:12

@ Rugxulo
 

DosUSB licence and price

> Many people prefer BSD licenses over GPL due to
> disagreements over which is more free.

(to give an idea why, here is a paragraph I once wrote for our university computer club. It is a bit the BSD opinion, and is mostly written from the view point of a independant developer, or a developer in a small company. And also the viewpoint that that group is a relative big contributor in OSS, specially in the bigger projects.

It's a bit chaotic, because after publication I kept adding to it.

------

(L)GPL:
before using package
- have to take certain responsability on me. (submit fixes back etc)
- Might have to split off code into shared libraries(.so,.dll) due to license, not technical requirements
- Must take a decision if I am obliged to open the source eventually (GPL).
- have to get that authorised -> go to boss. Two cases:
a) small company, or brave boss -> signature. Ready.
b) big company, paper pusher boss -> legal department.
-> 99% of time easier to rewrite package in that time.

BSD:
- Simply use it.
PRO:
- least administrative burden.
- Ease leads to better cooperation then compulsion.
- You are less required to have an own legal division or sell your soul to GNU to use theirs.

CON:
- you might miss a few lines of code from a few sloppy or malignant people/companies.
- You can't write Slashdot stories about squeezing a few build scripts out of router companies. But you don't have to spend resources to try either.


(L)GPL:

CON:
- more serious developers in companies avoid your pkgs, write their own versions, or buy proprietary packages that make open sourcing or abandonwaring at a later point more difficult, since the resulting product is multi-company. Resulting in the overall feedback and contributions being lower, and increased proprietariness of the package.
- license management a drain on resources, even for people that can live with it.

PRO:
- But the idiots that don't read licenses (and are generally less able) *HAVE* to submit fixes back.
- Satisfies a certain percentage of green idealistic students.
- High profile news when you get some company forced to grudly open a few scripts or optimizations (like Linksys like stories where firmwares were forced open.
- .... but that causes whole generations of companies to not use anything even only resembling the (L)GPL).

Result of BSD: nobody has to, but actual use generally leads to cooperation
more than forcing people -> more use and better response quality. Total
effect BSD>(L)GPL+( a few lines of code forced from unwilling companies).

Parallels to the "who is more productive, slaves or free workers?" are not considered far fetched. Forcing people is rarely rewarding, unless you are the RIAA or MPAA.

)

mr

14.12.2008, 19:02

@ marcov
 

DosUSB licence and price

Even if I don't agree everywhere, you should publish your opinion also somewhere else.

I've always asked myself what is more freedom, BSD or (L)GPL. There is no general answer, depending on your branches and status. Now I understand the different viewpoints better.

Personally as a hobbyist I am more happy to see GPL software. I don't like if if third party's come and release the same software with or without a few tweaks as closed source and poach users of the software I prefer, because it's my own disadvantage for the further developement of the original software.

For example Firefox and Netscape. I am a Firefox user and imho the new Netscape browser was pretty pointless and contra productive for Firefox. With GPL only this couldn't have happened.

marcov

14.12.2008, 23:02

@ mr
 

DosUSB licence and price

> For example Firefox and Netscape. I am a Firefox user and imho the new
> Netscape browser was pretty pointless and contra productive for Firefox.
> With GPL only this couldn't have happened

This is total nonsense. Netscape has funded Mozilla for years (and afaik still), and Mozilla is based on the original Netscape V5 code.

So there is no "poaching" involved.

Rugxulo

Homepage

Usono,
15.12.2008, 00:11

@ marcov
 

DosUSB licence and price

> > For example Firefox and Netscape. I am a Firefox user and imho the new
> > Netscape browser was pretty pointless and contra productive for
> Firefox.
> > With GPL only this couldn't have happened
>
> This is total nonsense. Netscape has funded Mozilla for years (and afaik
> still), and Mozilla is based on the original Netscape V5 code.
>
> So there is no "poaching" involved.

I don't think Netscape is a company anymore. It's owned by AOL, right? And the old code (e.g. Jamie Zawinski) is long gone, I think they ended up rewriting pretty much everything. Last I heard, even the "Netscape" version of the browser was recently discontinued (i.e. no future versions), but I may be wrong.

EDIT: Google funded a lot of Firefox. I think the main developer is/was a worker of theirs. Of course, some Google ad deal also allowed Opera to become "no cost". Also, Google just recently released Chrome 1.0 (but still only for Windows, others are upcoming).

---
Know your limits.h

ecm

Homepage E-mail

Düsseldorf, Germany,
15.12.2008, 14:17

@ Rugxulo
 

DosUSB licence and price

Yeah, browser war ;-)

> Of course, some Google ad deal also allowed Opera to become "no cost".

What exactly do you mean by "ad deal"? I don't see some sort of embedded ads here.

---
l

Rugxulo

Homepage

Usono,
15.12.2008, 18:23

@ ecm
 

DosUSB licence and price

> > Of course, some Google ad deal also allowed Opera to become "no cost".
>
> What exactly do you mean by "ad deal"? I don't see some sort of embedded
> ads here.

As you know, Opera used to cost money to use. I don't know the exact details, maybe they were paid to use Google as default search engine, but due to that, Opera became free.

Here's what a quick search found:

http://gigaom.com/2005/09/21/google-made-opera-browser-free/

And here's what Wikipedia says:

Up to this point, Opera was trialware and had to be purchased after the trial period ended. But version 5.0 (released in 2000) saw the end of this requirement. Instead, Opera became ad-sponsored, displaying advertisements to users who had not paid for it.[7] Later versions of Opera gave the user the choice of seeing banner ads or targeted text advertisements from Google. With version 8.5 (released in 2005) the advertisements were removed entirely and primary financial support for the browser came through revenue from Google (which is by contract Opera's default search engine).

ecm

Homepage E-mail

Düsseldorf, Germany,
15.12.2008, 20:03

@ Rugxulo
 

DosUSB licence and price

I didn't know the details about that default search engine, but it doesn't hurt anyway - there are about half a dozen search engines available by default, and it's easy to configure these as required. I started using Opera just a year ago (when it already had no ads without paying).

---
l

marcov

15.12.2008, 15:42

@ Rugxulo
 

DosUSB licence and price

> > This is total nonsense. Netscape has funded Mozilla for years (and
> afaik
> > still), and Mozilla is based on the original Netscape V5 code.
> >
> > So there is no "poaching" involved.
>
> I don't think Netscape is a company anymore. It's owned by AOL, right?

Correct. But afaik it is still an organization unit.

> And the old code (e.g. Jamie Zawinski) is long gone, I think they ended up
> rewriting pretty much everything.

Correct, but that was done by a large part by Netscape sponsored developers too.

> Last I heard, even the "Netscape"
> version of the browser was recently discontinued (i.e. no future
> versions), but I may be wrong.

Correct also.

> EDIT: Google funded a lot of Firefox. I think the main developer is/was a
> worker of theirs.

That's new to me. Maybe in recent years. But it was a Netscape run show by far, and afaik that was still the case not so long ago, with Netscape PR folk helping out with the 2.0 release.

However the point is that Mozilla pretty much originated in Netscape, and Netscape set the license (the MPL, the corporate LGPL). GPL was never an option.

mr

15.12.2008, 01:31

@ marcov
 

DosUSB licence and price

> > For example Firefox and Netscape. I am a Firefox user and imho the new
> > Netscape browser was pretty pointless and contra productive for
> Firefox.
> > With GPL only this couldn't have happened
>
> This is total nonsense. Netscape has funded Mozilla for years (and afaik
> still), and Mozilla is based on the original Netscape V5 code.
>
> So there is no "poaching" involved.

Doesn't matter for me if Netscape founded them years ago, I am aware of the history. Anyway, this try from Netscape with a closed source / restricted EULA was pointless from my view.

There was poaching involved, new Netscape where no Firefox users. Just making money out of the project, I don't welcome that.

marcov

15.12.2008, 10:13

@ mr
 

DosUSB licence and price

> There was poaching involved, new Netscape where no Firefox users. Just
> making money out of the project, I don't welcome that.

It was a clause in the funding. The foundation accepted because they IMHO rightfully thought it was a good deal.

I'm not even sure if mods weren't released later. I can vaguely remember some of it flowing back.

Anyway, the point is not to debate netscape's policies, but the value as an example where GPL-extortion would have yielded anything is ludicrous.

marcov

14.12.2008, 16:55

@ Rugxulo
 

DosUSB licence and price

> The FSF/GNU dislikes the terminology "open source".

I dislike FSFs hijacking of the too general word "free".

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