DOS ain't dead - FYI: DEATH (again, after cca 30 years)

DOS386

07.05.2010, 05:07

FYI: DEATH (again, after cca 30 years) (Announce)

http://www.techbabu.com/2010/04/now-its-end-of-life-for-floppy-disks/

> Sony has announced that it will stop making floppy disks from next year,
> after that there will be no floppy disk manufacturer left in he market.

One can emulate floppies using BOCHS (Pentium 3 and above) ... but no legacy DOS kernel can mount a floppy image itself :-( My kernel will, when it comes out one day, if ever (my periods of temporary death might not go away, rather get longer and more frequent in the future, and eventually evolve into a permanent death :-( ...)

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

Arjay

07.05.2010, 17:27
(edited by Arjay, 07.05.2010, 21:28)

@ DOS386

HxC SD card floppy emulator / Virtual Floppy Drive / Flopper

Post reply

> > after that there will be no floppy disk manufacturer left in he market.
People will fill the gap where there are still needs. Indeed have you not seen the excellent HxC Floppy Emulator? See also this HxC site and the forum. I did recently spot that Lotharek (an official seller) is now selling HxC emulators via ebay as user lotharek1977. At the time of writing has has some listed under "SD CARD Floppy Emulator". Lotharek's homepage is http://atari.plof.pl/ and he has more info and pics here in Polish.

I sadly don't currently own one but can clearly see these devices are well designed and built, so yes I want one ;-) I have read a number of other peoples reviews giving the device good reviews. Ebay feedback is also very good. HxC has tested as a PC drive according to the PDF documentation but currently most people buying them are using them on machines like Atari's etc. Note: I have no business links with anyone involved with HxC.

Update: Just realized someone might comment re low cost SD to IDE adapters or compact flash adapter to IDE adapters. Also good but I like the look of the flexibility of HxC and the fact that HxC is aimed at being a direct HW drop in floppy drive replacement which for those of us with a selection of machines is particularly useful.

Ken Kato's Virtual Floppy Drive for Windows also works really well and comes with the GPL'd C++ source code. I doubt VFD will work with HX "as is" but maybe someone might be interested in porting VFD to DOS?

> One can emulate floppies using BOCHS (Pentium 3 and above) ... but no
> legacy DOS kernel can mount a floppy image itself :-(
Indeed I am unaware of a DOS kernel allowing this and have briefly thought about it. To boot floppies under an existing DOS there is also Jeff's (DOSferatu) Flopper. It works well but needs the initial interrupt vector table to be captured first - that is obviously possible to do without a floppy drive (I touch on that in IVTUTIL's docs).

> it comes out one day, if ever (my periods of temporary death might not go
I hope you are ok? Certainly I look forward to seeing your finished work.

DOS386

08.05.2010, 07:02

@ Arjay

DEATH / HxC SD card floppy emulator / Virtual Floppy Drive

Post reply

> Indeed have you not seen the excellent floppy_drive_emulator HxC

No, thanks for the link. :-)

Good things:

- works on the very lowest level, maximum compatibility (probably not with copy protection "technologies", though ...)

Evil things:

- Device needs paying for
- Another host PC needed
- Windaube needed on host side (we got DOSUSB and USBDOS ...)

> Update: Just realized someone might comment re low cost SD to IDE

SD - Sucks as the Devil

> compact flash adapter to IDE adapters

I could test one some time ago and it looks very good: less mass, less heat, less noise, less volume, less mechanical sensitivity and less electricity wasting :-) I don't know about the lifetime, though :-|

> Ken Kato's Virtual Floppy Drive for Windows also works really well and
> comes with the GPL'd C++ source code.

No value at all, sorry :-(

> I doubt VFD will work with HX "as is" but maybe
> someone might be interested in porting VFD to DOS?

Impossible :-|

A nice early PC (8086, 80286, maybe 80386, ISA SB, VGA, floppy 5+1/4 and 3+1/2, PC speaker, serial+parallel) full emulator (host DOS) would be also cool :-)

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

Arjay

08.05.2010, 13:18
(edited by Arjay, 08.05.2010, 13:38)

@ DOS386

DEATH / HxC SD card floppy emulator / Virtual Floppy Drive

Post reply

> No, thanks for the link. :-)
No problem.

> - works on the very lowest level maximum compatibility
Yup that's what I like about HxC :) See the documentation for feature info.

> - Device needs paying for
Yes, that is a downside although all the DIY details appear to be there too! Also SDiskEmul with a PC?

> - Another host PC needed
I believe only to load the device initially. I also had the warped thought of using an HxC device on the same PC though; which appears possible to do.

> SD - Sucks as the Devil
Well the bit bashing SPI mode of SD/MMC cards makes them very easy to implement. Most modern PC's happily boot off SD/MMC cards. Depending on your BIOS some older PC's will boot off an SD/MMC cards put into a cheap $1 / 1 euro / 1 GBP USB card reader which gets treated as if it was a USB stick. I know as I have done both.

> > compact flash adapter to IDE adapters
> I could test one some time ago
I have also experimented with these and can highly recommend them. I have however had problems getting some of them to boot my boot-able memory cards which have worked fine elsewhere. So if you get one ensure it says bootable.

> and it looks very good: less mass, less heat, less noise, less volume,
> less mechanical sensitivity and less electricity wasting
Yup very suitable for industrial environments. With regards to a desktop PC it is worth knowing that you can run a PC off just a 12+volt supply taping the 5+volt off that and doing away with the negative voltages which are only needed for mechanical devices. In otherwords if you run a PC headless without a monitor and scrap the need for hard disks, floppy, CD drives you don't need the -5v or -12v. 12v adapters now widely exist for modern PC's but I was planning to try a DIY approach for a project using older stuff - to be honest I haven't yet had the time to do this but am aware that you can. Obviously getting rid of stuff/heat also reduces the need for cooling, large cases. Likewise the more you reduce the less battery/supply demand required to power it.

If you are in Europe don't forget that most PC's / monitors are 100-240v switchable meaning if you have a 100v-110v supply (i.e. industrial supplies) you don't need to worry about a 220v/240v supply as well. However re industrial environments it is important to have an understanding of mains filtering, earth differentials.... so speak to a qualified electrician :)

> I don't know about the lifetime, though :-|
I initially thought about this and then remembered digital cameras use them a lot. I also remembered many early digital cameras with cards ran DOS - so the technology has been well tried and tested with DOS ;-) I have also been deliberately regularly abusing one card under DOS for months with no issues.... Until a few days ago when I went to do a bit backup. Before I could though the FAT's were trashed. I am blaming the *non-DOS* PC and cheap card writer.

Most annoying that card was a boot-able DOS with the source to loads of my DOS programs on it as I was booting/using it for development!!! Fortunately I have an earlier backup and have already taken several low level images of the card and can see my source in them but haven't been bothered yet to get it out. In this instance I believe the card is physically fine but the issue was an unfortunate OS driver/card reader conflict as this is the 2nd card trashed in this way on the same non-DOS PC and same reader hence I now know!

> Ken Kato's Virtual Floppy Drive for Windows also works really
> No value at all, sorry :-(
I disagree. I have been using VFD for years including for DOS projects.
On a similar note I highly rate the excellent Linux/Windows low-level disk work of John Newbigin

> Impossible :-|
Nothing is impossible :) Only time limits the possible!

> A nice early PC (8086, 80286, maybe 80386, ISA SB, VGA, floppy 5+1/4 and
> 3+1/2, PC speaker, serial+parallel) full emulator (host DOS) would be also
> cool :-)
I agree :) When do you hope to have it finished? ;-)

Arjay

08.05.2010, 16:43
(edited by Arjay, 08.05.2010, 17:24)

@ Arjay

Other hardware floppy emulators - using USB sticks on ebay

Post reply

I also spotted some other cheaper hardware based floppy emulators on ebay:

Specifications:

* USB socket to insert USB pen drive
* 4-pin floppy socket for voltage supply
* 34-pin socket for standard floppy drive cable
* Diagnostics RED LED: Busy
* Diagnostics GREEN LED: Power
* Voltage supply: 5 V DC, 4-pin-voltage supply socket for 3.5 inch drive

Sellers reply to a question asked by a ebay user:
Hi, is there anything special required by the pen drive (formatting / capacity / speed etc)?
Hello, USB sticks can only format into 720k or 1.44mb even you have a large (e.g. 1gb) USB stick. Speed is like normal floppy when work as floppy. Thank you

IMHO, HxC looks better, is more flexible etc. Still always nice to have various options. For most of my own needs though I prefer having more space though, e.g. The MMC card I was using to develop on was 32Mb which was fine for my development needs. Indeed it cost about 8pence (100pence = 1GBP) and I was using/ dual booting from a built SD card reader so it worked out quite cheap as a removable PC hard drive :-) It was however corrupted on another PC with a different reader. I just need to get round to fixing/replacing it now - not a problem as I brought a lots to use as removable "harddisks" !!

Speaking of which I have also used SD card adapters to use even MiniSD and MicroSD as DOS drives. The downside with the later is MicroSD cards are so small not in size but physically !! I can't see me losing my old full height drives anytime soon but the fact that a MicroSD fits onto the coins shown in this photo next to full height drives makes me worry about losing them easily. Still I would have much preferred dropping a MicroSD drive onto my foot vs the very heavy full height drive I did many years ago.... I certainly knew where that drive landed that is for sure ! :)

DOS386

13.05.2010, 03:51

@ Arjay

DEATH / HxC SD card floppy emulator / Virtual Floppy Drive

Post reply

> I have been using VFD for years including for DO

???

> Nothing is impossible :) Only time limits the possible!

Please port FireFox rather than VFD then :-)

> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Verbatim-Will-Continue-Making-Floppy-Disks-141447.shtml

funny :-|

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

Rugxulo

Usono,
08.05.2010, 13:35

@ DOS386

FYI: DEATH (again, after cca 30 years)

Post reply

> http://www.techbabu.com/2010/04/now-its-end-of-life-for-floppy-disks/
>
> > Sony has announced that it will stop making floppy disks from next
> year,
> > after that there will be no floppy disk manufacturer left in he market.

I saw this mentioned on OS News. According to someone there, some companies still sell floppies. I don't know if they're still produced, though.

Ironically, the brand of my (bought a year or so ago) double-speed USB floppy drive was Sony. Also, I grabbed a Sony Mavicon at a charity garage sale just because it used a 3.5" floppy (haven't tried it, didn't come with battery, may not even work even then, I just thought it was funny ... besides, $10 ain't much for charity anyways).

The main problem with migrating to other hardware is having to buy it (minor), having the computer that's compatible with it (medium), and having an OS that supports it (major issue, and good luck with that if it isn't Win, Lin, or Mac ... very annoying!).

Arjay

08.05.2010, 13:55
(edited by Arjay, 08.05.2010, 14:38)

@ Rugxulo

FYI: DEATH (again, after cca 30 years)

Post reply

> I saw this mentioned on OS News. According to someone there, some
> companies still sell floppies. I don't know if they're still produced,
> though.
I don't doubt there are still tons of drives and disks in large warehouses, so to be honest I don't think supply will be a problem for a few years. The downside will be the fact we are now entering a sellers market. Indeed have you noticed that disks have already been going up in price anyway? Not sure I ever wish to start paying prices like 10GBP per box again though - thank you very much it was bad enough the first time around !!

Sadly I remember this with 5 1/4" drives (one of my first PC upgrades was to swap my 5 1/4" drive A: drive with a 3 1/2" drive!). Even more sad is the fact that I still own several 5 1/4" drives including FULL height (2 drive bay) versions. Recently I saw a 8" drive in regular business use as well! I don't doubt a 20" drive is still in regular use somewhere... sadly I haven't seen one since about 1992 though !

Still it always amuses me (this is particularly true in the west) when some "expert" stands up and says things like "I predict XYZ technology will be completely dead within the next year", e.g "Fax machines are dead" completely forgetting that they only live in a small part of the much bigger world. Which is why there are still companies offering services such as email to telex conversions ! So what's next? DOS is going to be completely dead? :-)

> Ironically, the brand of my (bought a year or so ago) double-speed USB
> floppy drive was Sony.
USB drives are ok, I brought one ages ago and then was given a brand new sealed one for free but personally I still prefer proper IDE drives as more reliable.

> Also, I grabbed a Sony Mavicon at a charity garage sale just because
> it used a 3.5" floppy (haven't tried it, didn't come with battery,
FYI, many older laptop battery packs are made up of rechargeable AA batteries wired together inside a nice case. So if you know the input voltages etc.

> may not even work even then, I just thought it was funny ...
Probably it will be fine. I have an old dual 720k drive 8086 laptop which works fine off 12volts. Amusingly it is actually very light weight as it didn't come with a hard disk. MDA also ;-) Yet still powerful enough to run my home automation software. Ran the latest FreeDOS also last time I tried :)

[EDIT] Just realized/remembered you probably meant the Sony Mavica as in digital camera. From memory (haven't used one since about 2001) they could be powered via USB. The ones I used to use belonged to work at the time, I always wanted one myself though. Generated JPG's and AVI's I think - a good camera in its day.

> besides, $10 ain't much for charity anyways).
:) You are not alone. My last box of sealed disks came with a embedded DOS device from a charity shop a few months ago :) I wanted the DOS device but finding a box of sealed disks inside the box was a bonus.

> The main problem with migrating to other hardware is having to buy it
> (minor), having the computer that's compatible with it (medium), and
> having an OS that supports it (major issue, and good luck with that if it
> isn't Win, Lin, or Mac ... very annoying!).
Well don't forget IDE is a long established interface. So if you have an IDE connector on something you will be able to plug things into it for years.

Yes, I still use floppies with some kit but to be honest with you I have been switching more and more to using IDE/USB alternatives as much as possible.

Arjay

08.05.2010, 18:03
(edited by Arjay, 08.05.2010, 18:25)

@ DOS386

floppyem.sys - config.sys Floppy Emulator device driver

Post reply

> One can emulate floppies using BOCHS (Pentium 3 and above) ... but no
> legacy DOS kernel can mount a floppy image itself :-(

There is presently no such thing as floppyem.sys but I am thinking out loud here on purpose. This discussion and noticing that one of those USB floppy emulators on ebay supports 100 different floppies as files, together with various comments on the HxC forums about supporting DOS images made me think that a loadable DOS "floppy emulator" driver would be the answer for many DOS users as it would not matter what the initial boot media was etc.

I also seem to remember in the distant past I seem to vaguely remember a few RAM drive programs which possibly supported saving of contents as a file anyway?

[EDIT] - Going through various RAMDISKS on SIMTEL it would appear that I am wrong. Note: ramsave.zip is a simple XCOPY type of program. I did however note that srdsk208.zip did appear to support an interesting bootsector option. When it came to ram-disks I never used either program though.

Still what I am thinking about here is 1 driver which supports the emulation of several different drives at the same time from 1 or multiple image files. Sadly I don't have the resources to make this happen myself easily at the moment, but by putting this basic idea here I thought others may be interested in picking up this idea.

Berlin, Germany,
08.05.2010, 21:12

@ Arjay

floppyem.sys - config.sys Floppy Emulator device driver

Post reply

I'm still not sure, what you're looking for, but did you try Veit Kannegieser's e0x?

---
Forum admin

Arjay

09.05.2010, 00:39

@ rr

floppyem.sys - config.sys Floppy Emulator device driver

Post reply

> I'm still not sure, what you're looking for
Thank you for your response. To be clear I am NOT actively looking for anything myself but was rather thinking out loud regarding the clear needs of others; in that some people need ways of emulating floppy drives under native DOS. I have thus suggested the creation of a config.sys driver to do this like a RAMDISK driver only designed to load (and yes possibly save) from image files which could be stored on any media readable as another DOS drive.

I could probably write one myself but for 2 reasons: 1) I believe there are far more qualified people on this forum with more experience and existing code. 2) Time - I'm busy with other projects not only my own but I am also working to help release other peoples DOS projects (not yet announced).

Hence I have shared my thinking "out in the open" in the hope that someone says, ah yes I could easily take this existing code and do that. To be clear I am not looking or thinking of anyone in particular but am hoping that someone with better skills than I have with disk images will pickup this need.

> did you try Veit Kannegieser's
> e0x?

No. Sadly nothing like this there. But really interesting link - thank you!

Vehudis 09.05.2010, 08:46 @ DOS386	FDD emulator Post reply
	Have you tried fakedisk or DF?

Arjay

09.05.2010, 12:27
(edited by Arjay, 09.05.2010, 15:15)

@ Vehudis

FDD emulators - fakedisk (read-only) + DF-IFS (read/write)

Post reply

> Have you tried fakedisk or DF?

No, as I what not aware of the existence of either. Thank you for this info which I am sure others reading this will find helpful. I have no need for either utils myself, however to further help others who do here is some additional information:

There is good high level info about both utilities in this 911.net "program to run (FILE.IMG), Help" thread. If the 911 forum page is ever down just go to the following page and follow the appropriate download links:
http://www.fdos.org/ripcord/rawrite/ *** Neither appears to support ISO files - see shsucdx instead ***

Additional notes concerning FAKEDISK
Fakedisk is read-only but comes with GPL assembler source code. The distribution ZIP file is smartly called "fakezip.zip". See above links.

Additional notes concerning DF/DF-IFS

DF-IFS.EXE and DF-IFS.DOC are part of "DF (Disk Image File Utility) dosdf.zip from Mark Vitt (shareware, no source), DOS, original site unknown". DFS-IFS is contained within DOSDF.ZIP and is READ-WRITE.

To install DF and its related utilities you normally have to unzip everything and then run INSTALL.COM contained within the ZIP. However if you try to use the same destination drive letter as the source drive letter (e.g. if you are running it off a flash stick) the install program does not like it.

However this can easily be worked around in 2 ways: 1) Using SUBST to make a temporary new drive of the same drive, e.g. "SUBST E: C:\" or 2)Unzip DOSDF.ZIP into a directory where you want the files and then manually running UTILS.EXE which is a self extracting v1.1 PKZIP archive and will unpack 17 related utils.

The version 4 I briefly looked at has newer file stamps, however as it has no official apparent homepage I am not sure if this program is still being updated? Certainly the binaries look like they are older than their timestamps.

IMPORTANT: ** I haven't actually tested either program yet myself **

roytam

09.05.2010, 09:48

@ DOS386

FYI: DEATH (again, after cca 30 years)

Post reply

> http://www.techbabu.com/2010/04/now-its-end-of-life-for-floppy-disks/
>
> > Sony has announced that it will stop making floppy disks from next
> year,
> > after that there will be no floppy disk manufacturer left in he market.
>
> One can emulate floppies using BOCHS (Pentium 3 and above) ... but no
> legacy DOS kernel can mount a floppy image itself :-( My kernel will, when
> it comes out one day, if ever (my periods of temporary death might not go
> away, rather get longer and more frequent in the future, and eventually
> evolve into a permanent death :-( ...)

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Verbatim-Will-Continue-Making-Floppy-Disks-141447.shtml