DOS ain't dead - USB devices in DOS

Misha

RU,
15.10.2010, 22:14

USB devices in DOS (Users)

Hello, everybody.
So, usb flash drive and usb mouse are working
without any drivers on my netbook (in freedos).
In my case FreeDos assigns drive letter to
the flash drive only at load time.

But to mount/unmount the flash drive I have to hard-reboot.
Rebooting is fast (about 4 sec) but what is the correct
way of re-assigning drives after I plug/unplug usb flash?

Usb mouse works when cutemouse driver is loaded, BUT it
runs BOTH the usb mouse and PS/2 touchpad. Both devices
works fine in text mode apps like VC.
But, for example in duke3d if i touch or click the
usb mouse, the keyboard goes completely crazy.
Honestly I didn't expected dos apps to work with usb mouse
correctly , I was even thinking of extracting the
touchpad and unsoldering the contacts for a normal PS/2 socket.
Here another noob question rises: is the usb-mouse ITSELF works the same as classic mouse (just has a diff. plug)?

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[X] Don't use LFN

DOS386

16.10.2010, 03:31

@ Misha

USB stuff (storage+rat) DOS | DOS volume management | NTLFN

Post reply

> So, usb flash drive and usb mouse are working
> without any drivers on my netbook (in freedos).

Thank to the God and BIOS coders ;-)

> In my case FreeDos assigns drive letter to
> the flash drive only at load time.

FreeDOS assigns the volume letter to a physical drive it gets from the BIOS ;-)

> But to mount/unmount the flash drive I have to hard-reboot.
> Rebooting is fast (about 4 sec) but what is the correct
> way of re-assigning drives after I plug/unplug usb flash?

There is none. None of the legacy DOS kernels provides a proper volume management.

Note: Bret's USBDOS driver set tries to provide this by [ab]using the "block device driver" hack. But then, forget BIOS support.

BTW, the proper way of doing is an USB driver, not BIOS. BIOS most likely will assign physical disks to storage devices (how many???) found just before booting, no idea what happens if you change the device or add one.

> Usb mouse works when cutemouse driver is loaded, BUT it
> runs BOTH the usb mouse and PS/2 touchpad. Both devices
> works fine in text mode apps like VC.

Yeah :-)

> But, for example in duke3d if i touch or click the
> usb mouse, the keyboard goes completely crazy.

This means???

> Honestly I didn't expected dos apps to work with usb mouse
> correctly , I was even thinking of extracting the
> touchpad and unsoldering the contacts for a normal PS/2 socket.

Good :-)

> Here another noob question rises: is the usb-mouse ITSELF
> works the same as classic mouse (just has a diff. plug)?

AFAIK the BIOS fakes a PS/2 mouse (using the hacky SMM CPU mode?). CUTEMOUSE definitely doesn't know anything about USB.

> [X] Don't use LFN

Right :-)

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This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

Rugxulo

Usono,
16.10.2010, 04:40

@ DOS386

USB stuff (storage+rat) DOS | DOS volume management | NTLFN

Post reply

> > But, for example in duke3d if i touch or click the
> > usb mouse, the keyboard goes completely crazy.
>
> This means???

Sounds like a BIOS bug, but it could also be a DOS extender bug, in this case DOS/4G Professional (right?). You could try again with Causeway, DOS/32A, or even HDPMI32 loaded first. Or try a different CuteMouse (1.9? 2.0? 2.1?). I doubt recompiling Duke Nukem 3D would help here, but who knows, maybe it's the engine's bug. (Can't help much more than that, don't really use the mouse, even for FPS games.)

Misha

RU,
17.10.2010, 20:43

@ Rugxulo

USB stuff (storage+rat) DOS | DOS volume management

Post reply

> > > But, for example in duke3d if i touch or click the
> > > usb mouse, the keyboard goes completely crazy.
> >
> > This means???
>
> Sounds like a BIOS bug, but it could also be a DOS extender bug, in this
> case DOS/4G Professional (right?). You could try again with Causeway,
> DOS/32A, or even HDPMI32 loaded first. Or try a different CuteMouse (1.9?
> 2.0? 2.1?). I doubt recompiling Duke Nukem 3D would help here, but who

So Duke is not guilty!
By the way, I am using both dos/4gw (original) and dos/32a (patched) versions of duke3d executable for a long time. Patched version is a litle bit (~5%) smaller than original, but still I can't see any difference in the game really.

> (Can't help much more than that, don't
> really use the mouse, even for FPS games.)

So, Rugxulo, you are 'Traktorist' ( = 'tractor driver' in Russian) :-)
This is how mouse-gamers here called guys who played FPS with keyboard only :-)

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[X] Don't use LFN

Rugxulo

Usono,
17.10.2010, 23:19

@ Misha

USB stuff (storage+rat) DOS | DOS volume management

Post reply

> So Duke is not guilty!

I don't know. (But he does get the electric chair, nyuk nyuk.)

> By the way, I am using both dos/4gw (original) and dos/32a (patched)
> versions of duke3d executable for a long time. Patched version is a litle
> bit (~5%) smaller than original, but still I can't see any difference in
> the game really.

DOS/4G (in any form) is like 250 kb while DOS/32A is approx. 18 kb (only if UPX'd? I forget). I know Mpxplay is picky in only working with DOS/32A or DOS/4G and not all the others (for various weird reasons). I also know that Eric Auer typically just renamed DOS32A.EXE to DOS4GW.EXE for OpenWatcom. (Not sure if he's still sticking exclusively to 1.3 or not. BTW, anybody know if Mpxplay ever upgraded and fixed the struct alignment issue??)

> > (Can't help much more than that, don't
> > really use the mouse, even for FPS games.)
>
> So, Rugxulo, you are 'Traktorist' ( = 'tractor driver' in Russian) :-)
> This is how mouse-gamers here called guys who played FPS with keyboard only
> :-)

Ever since you brought it up (a month ago?), I've been playing Duke Nukem 3D a fair bit (shareware, episode 1) on my (original) P4. It's starting to whine that "NOW" I must upgrade, heh, played it too much. I completed the whole demo without using the mouse (and under DOSBox too!). I still play the first level or two occasionally, just for fun. No, I never recompiled the main DUKE3D.EXE, shame on me, but I didn't feel the need. Oh, but I did read on DOSBox's forum that somebody got a good speedup (of DOSBox itself) with MS VS 2010 (but that hates Win2k and XP pre-SP2 unless you patch it). You should nag the #dosbox (freenode.net) guys to provide you a build for your netbook.

Misha

RU,
19.10.2010, 17:39

@ Rugxulo

Dos games

Post reply

> > So Duke is not guilty!
> I don't know. (But he does get the electric chair, nyuk nyuk.)
:-)

> I completed the
> whole demo without using the mouse (and under DOSBox too!).
Yes, hard but possible :)

> read on DOSBox's forum that somebody got a good speedup (of DOSBox itself)
> with MS VS 2010 (but that hates Win2k and XP pre-SP2 unless you patch it).
> You should nag the #dosbox (freenode.net) guys to provide you a build for
> your netbook.

Good, but still I try to avoid Dosbox where I can. An there is no windows on my netbook . Couple of days ago I had installed Ubuntu, so now you should say Dosemu ;-)
By the way, do you remember our talk about the... let me call it 'bios patch for the 320x240x8bit mode'? So it sounded like it is probably in plans or something? I don't really need it, just interesting, and I know that the lack of this mode is common to new machines.

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[X] Don't use LFN

Rugxulo

Usono,
19.10.2010, 22:48

@ Misha

Dos games

Post reply

> > I completed the
> > whole demo without using the mouse (and under DOSBox too!).
> Yes, hard but possible :)

Keyboard is hard??? Not really. I know all the "pros" use kbd+mouse, but I don't see the appeal unless you really wanted super-duper accuracy, being able to turn on a dime, etc.

> > read on DOSBox's forum that somebody got a good speedup (of DOSBox
> itself)
> > with MS VS 2010 (but that hates Win2k and XP pre-SP2 unless you patch
> it).
> > You should nag the #dosbox (freenode.net) guys to provide you a build
> for
> > your netbook.
>
> Good, but still I try to avoid Dosbox where I can.

It's slow, I'll admit, but if it works, it works. There really was somebody talking about MS VS 2010 speeding up a lot. I imagine also a GCC 4.5.0 recompile would help your Atom also. But I dunno, can't test, haven't bothered trying to rebuild it on Win32 yet.

> An there is no windows
> on my netbook .

Right, forgot about that. You could try Slitaz Linux, only 30 MB liveCD, and their repository has DOSBox (0.73, which is one step behind but still very very good).

> Couple of days ago I had installed Ubuntu, so now you
> should say Dosemu ;-)

Assuming all the Ubuntu bugs don't bite you (sysctl vm.mmap_min_addr=0).

> By the way, do you remember our talk about the... let me call it 'bios
> patch for the 320x240x8bit mode'? So it sounded like it is probably in
> plans or something? I don't really need it, just interesting, and I
> know that the lack of this mode is common to new machines.

It's a good idea, but no, I don't think anybody is working on it. AFAIK, only me and Eric knew about it, and I'm very clueless on some of that stuff, so Eric's idea that I should "test" (in the dark, so to speak) isn't very helpful. He's busy with real life, I guess, or maybe even he doesn't know how. I dunno, stupid modern computers and their incompatible modern crap! What good are they if they can't even work right or agree on standards or keep things simple??? Argh! :angry: And they have the gall to fight it out over patents when their crap ain't worth crap anyways. When will a good, decent architecture come out? Or when will somebody replicate the good enough "old" PC hardware so we can actually run "old" software and get real work done?? (I guess DOSBox is as close as we're gonna get.)

Misha

RU,
17.10.2010, 20:32

@ DOS386

USB stuff (storage+rat) DOS | DOS volume management

Post reply

> > So, usb flash drive and usb mouse are working
> > without any drivers on my netbook (in freedos).
>
> Thank to the God and BIOS coders ;-)
Yes, the God of Computers :-)
He sees everything.

> BTW, the proper way of doing is an USB driver, not BIOS. BIOS most likely
> will assign physical disks to storage devices (how many???) found just
> before booting, no idea what happens if you change the device or add one.

Interesting fact that BIOS assigns sd card a floppy drive (A:). Just checked in GRUB4DOS - it is (fd0). That reminds me of times when floppies was (and somewhere still is) the common way of transporting data... I booted up with sd card plugged in, and then replaced it with another, changed to A: -- my poor netbook hang up completely, so I had to unplug power cord (power button didn't work)

> > Usb mouse works when cutemouse driver is loaded, BUT it
> > runs BOTH the usb mouse and PS/2 touchpad. Both devices
> > works fine in text mode apps like VC.
>
> Yeah :-)

Oh, I cancel that 'works fine in text mode apps'. New advanced :) tests showed that it doesn't. The new test consist of: pushing letter keys and moving mouse at the same time. Results: (cutemouse 1.91 in VC) after 2 sec the 'collapse' happens, that means, not only the typed letters appear in the prompt, but also numbers (which I don't type), just like Invisible man is pushing the number keeys.
With cutemouse 2.0, 2.1 the 'collapse' turns into complete 'disaster', that means all the keys shuffle, so i decided to reboot before I delete some important files.

Same picture i saw in Freecom and Duke3d. At least now I know that it is not duke3d which causes the problem.

> > correctly , I was even thinking of extracting the
> > touchpad and unsoldering the contacts for a normal PS/2 socket.
>
> Good :-)

Considering the above, it must be the proper decision. Just have to be sure the operating voltage levels will fit the normal PS/2 mouse.
Still, it's too bad that the computer (notebook) designers don't leave one free PS/2 socket, it would cost them nothing.
I see many users in the net complaining they don't like this touch pad thing. So do I, it just sucks. Some small pen tablet could be way more productive.

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[X] Don't use LFN

ecm

Düsseldorf, Germany,
16.10.2010, 15:27

@ Misha

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> So, usb flash drive and usb mouse are working
> without any drivers on my netbook (in freedos).

The BIOS has drivers that are used in this case.

> But to mount/unmount the flash drive I have to hard-reboot.
> Rebooting is fast (about 4 sec) but what is the correct
> way of re-assigning drives after I plug/unplug usb flash?

Rebooting, in case of the BIOS driver.

> But, for example in duke3d if i touch or click the
> usb mouse, the keyboard goes completely crazy.

This is an incompatibility or conflict between the game's drivers (the part that is used for keyboard and mouse access) and the USB drivers (ie. PS/2 emulation) of the BIOS.

> Here another noob question rises: is the usb-mouse ITSELF works the same as
> classic mouse (just has a diff. plug)?

No, the USB mouse and keyboard protocol is completely different from the PS/2 one. Even with devices that support simple USB to PS/2 converters, the device will detect whether it is accessed as USB or PS/2 device and use the correct protocol.

You may be interested in the USB drivers currently developed, which is the one by Georg Potthast (costs 65 ? plus VAT) and the one by Bret Johnson (freeware, open source).

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Misha

RU,
17.10.2010, 20:55

@ ecm

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> > But to mount/unmount the flash drive I have to hard-reboot.
> > Rebooting is fast (about 4 sec) but what is the correct
> > way of re-assigning drives after I plug/unplug usb flash?
>
> Rebooting, in case of the BIOS driver.
Ok, this calms me down, I was worrying that I miss some function which will do this without rebooting.

> > Here another noob question rises: is the usb-mouse ITSELF works the same
> as
> > classic mouse (just has a diff. plug)?
>
> No, the USB mouse and keyboard protocol is completely different from the
> PS/2 one. Even with devices that support simple USB to PS/2 converters, the
> device will detect whether it is accessed as USB or PS/2 device and use the
> correct protocol.
So... if I plug USB mouse to PS/2 port via converter, it may work or may not, depending of mouse's ability to switch between PS/2 and USB working modes?

> You may be interested in the USB drivers currently developed, which is the
> one by Georg Potthast (costs 65 ?
> plus VAT) and the one by Bret Johnson
> (freeware, open source).
Thanks for the links, I just need some time to look at that.

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[X] Don't use LFN

ecm

Düsseldorf, Germany,
17.10.2010, 21:43

@ Misha

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> So... if I plug USB mouse to PS/2 port via converter, it may work or may
> not, depending of mouse's ability to switch between PS/2 and USB working
> modes?

Exactly. All USB mice and keyboards I tested so far did understand the PS/2 protocol too, but that isn't always the case. (A simple example: consider a receiver for a wireless set of mouse and keyboard, were the receiver is connected to the computer with USB. It is impossible for a PS/2-connected device to be both a keyboard and a mouse.) It is also not part of the USB standard.

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RayeR

CZ,
27.10.2010, 03:11

@ Misha

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

BTW how about sound on your netbook - does it work for Duke under DOS?

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Misha

RU,
27.10.2010, 04:21
(edited by Misha, 27.10.2010, 06:27)

@ RayeR

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> BTW how about sound on your netbook - does it work for Duke under DOS?
No, so far I didn't hear anything under DOS. Will be great of course to try something... but am happy that it runs at all really. I cant still even manage to try it on ramdisk, which I think improve duke on my netbook more than getting sounds.But I work on starting to work on this :)

Just wanted to add, Dos tools for virtualising hdd seems to be problematic to run on my netbook, and this is not direct problem solver in this case, probably duke is just hard-coded to a small amount of mem.

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[X] Don't use LFN

RayeR

CZ,
27.10.2010, 12:01

@ Misha

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> > BTW how about sound on your netbook - does it work for Duke under DOS?
> No, so far I didn't hear anything under DOS.

OK, I remember that I read review of some UMPC (long time ago, I dont remember the model) where they managed to run freedos WITH sound and play some old games. It had some VIA chipset and probably SMBIOS-emulated soundblaster. But I never see such feature later...

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Rugxulo

Usono,
27.10.2010, 23:39

@ Misha

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> > BTW how about sound on your netbook - does it work for Duke under DOS?
> No, so far I didn't hear anything under DOS.

That's no huge surprise. I recently ran an old game from 1995 on my other "old" P4 (2003?), and it wouldn't even start (!) without "-nosound". Plus all the text/fonts graphics were illegible for some odd reason. And it was a little too fast, heh. Yes, it uses DOS/4GW (and has srcs). But it all works flawlessly in DOSBox.

> Will be great of course to try
> something... but am happy that it runs at all really. I cant still even
> manage to try it on ramdisk, which I think improve duke on my netbook more
> than getting sounds.But I work on starting to work on this :)

http://www.tenberry.com/dos4g/watcom/4gwtable.html

DOS/4GW 1.97 DOS/4GW 2.01 DOS/4GW Pro DOS/4G for Watcom Virtual Address Space 32 MB 32 MB 128 MB 4 GB Physical Address Space 32 MB 32 MB 64 MB 64 MB

So it may be that putting it in RAM (Gog.com says 27 MB download) would eat up more than it can access anyways.

Really, I don't know what minimum files are needed to run. If you could figure that amount (KGB?), then you could run "RDISK /S20 /:G" or similar and xcopy to RAM disk.

Though does this mean your SSD is making it run slower than optimal?? Because normally I wouldn't think running on a HD would be less than ideal for Duke Nukem 3D (though I only played the demo version recently and only under Puppy, fully in RAM).

> Just wanted to add, Dos tools for virtualising hdd seems to be problematic
> to run on my netbook, and this is not direct problem solver in this case,
> probably duke is just hard-coded to a small amount of mem.

Like I said, it's probably the DOS/4G variant's fault. You could try a different extender too, if you think that'll help. CWSTUB.EXE, DOS32A.EXE, WDOSX, D3X, etc.

Don't forget that D3D's engine is open source, so somebody (in theory) could hack/patch/recompile it! (No free data, but see below or Ken's Labyrinth.)

P.S. :-D
2010-09-15: Freedoom 0.7-rc1 released. (Needs Boom-compatible, e.g. Eternity)
http://www.nongnu.org/freedoom/

RayeR

CZ,
28.10.2010, 21:16

@ Rugxulo

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> Don't forget that D3D's engine is
> open source, so
> somebody (in theory) could
> hack/patch/recompile it! (No free
> data, but see below or Ken's
> Labyrinth.)

Of course, if we are talking about alternative engine why not to play JFduke for win32 with sound and high definition texture pack, it looks much better :)
Probably it will be slow on netbook but for modern PC it runs fine. I hope one day someone will make such Blood alternative :)

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Misha

RU,
30.10.2010, 10:06

@ RayeR

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> Though does this mean your SSD is making it run slower than optimal?? Because
> normally I wouldn't think running on a HD would be less than ideal for Duke
> Nukem 3D (though I only played the demo version recently and only under
> Puppy, fully in RAM).

No I didn't say it is slow. Generally it is hellish fast, but it is making slowdowns when I enter new sectors. But strange, it stops uploading data if I run thru the whole level, this must be a sign that it can handle the whole level data in memory. Probably 1.5 Atomic fixes that, I will try.
By the way, I tried playing with keyboard only, for a while. It's harder for sure. And I would be killed all the time not far from where I spawn in dukematch play :-)

> Of course, if we are talking about alternative engine why not to play
> JFduke for win32 with sound and high definition texture pack, it looks much
> better :)
> Probably it will be slow on netbook but for modern PC it runs fine. I hope
> one day someone will make such Blood alternative :)

Yes win32 version (I play xDuke port, it is known being most close to the original) is fast enough, graphics is even faster, but the input is different (to the worse). Probably windows'es event system is somewhat that you can't get rid of when developing any application. About high resolution pack, I think I am on the opposite, I like original Duke much more, and changing resolution to more than 640x480 doesnt make any sense usualy, only slows things down. Yes, sprite monsters can confuse people, but I don' care.

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RayeR

CZ,
30.10.2010, 22:23

@ Misha

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> Yes win32 version (I play xDuke port, it is known being most close to the
> original) is fast enough, graphics is even faster, but the input is
> different (to the worse). Probably windows'es event system is somewhat that
> you can't get rid of when developing any application. About high resolution
> pack, I think I am on the opposite, I like original Duke much more, and
> changing resolution to more than 640x480 doesnt make any sense usualy, only
> slows things down. Yes, sprite monsters can confuse people, but I don'
> care.

I played JFduke only short time but I didn't recognize any problem with controls. I always use KBD + mouse, I would get lost without mouse. I think higer resolution has a sense. Of course sprites and textures itself are very limited but if object is placed in far distance then it looks better in high res. Also edges of buildings are smoother in hires. So if possible I choose native resolution of my LCD (1600x1200) but most of dos games supports only up to 1280x1024 so it's then better select 800x600 and let scale it up by 2:1 integer ratio.

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Misha

RU,
31.10.2010, 04:50

@ RayeR

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> I played JFduke only short time but I didn't recognize any problem with
> controls.
There are no problems indeed, and average human won't see any difference, but I am no average (nobody should take this as an offence ;-) ) and I notice the input lag in all windows games I ever played.
> I think
> higer resolution has a sense. Of course sprites and textures itself are
> very limited but if object is placed in far distance then it looks better
> in high res. Also edges of buildings are smoother in hires. So if possible
> I choose native resolution of my LCD (1600x1200) but most of dos games
> supports only up to 1280x1024 so it's then better select 800x600 and let
> scale it up by 2:1 integer ratio.
Yes, right, higher res is better, but at the times of Duke's popularity computers were mostly 486 or Pentium I and higher res means significant slowdown and no significant improvement to the picture.
And you are lucky with your monitor , and I am still locked inside my LVDS in DOS on my netbook.
BTW, the only info I was able to find about the 'external monitor' problem resides in the VESA VBE/SCI standard (function 4F sub-function 15H) but I am not even sure whether it is applicable to my netbook and I am still a complete 'zero' in assembly. But at least I started to read books on it, probably in a year or two I will be able to do something myself :)

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[X] Don't use LFN

RayeR

CZ,
31.10.2010, 13:44

@ Misha

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> There are no problems indeed, and average human won't see any difference,
> but I am no average (nobody should take this as an offence ;-) ) and I
> notice the input lag in all windows games I ever played.

Hm, input lag, then you must feel also input lag of the LCD itself and you should play only on CRT :) I measured this by filming a timer simultaneously displayed on my old good CRT and new LCD and there was 3 frames delay (for LCD overdrive function). Fast TN probably don't have this delay I don't know, my LCD is S-PVA.

> Yes, right, higher res is better, but at the times of Duke's popularity
> computers were mostly 486 or Pentium I and higher res means significant
> slowdown and no significant improvement to the picture.

I know, 1st time I palyed duke on my 486DX4 overclocked at 120MHz (320x200) and in some levels it got very slow but maybe due to lack of RAM, I had only 8MB...

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Misha

RU,
31.10.2010, 18:01

@ RayeR

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> Hm, input lag, then you must feel also input lag of the LCD itself and you
> should play only on CRT :)
THAT'S WHAT I would do now if I was able to switch to it from DOS on my netbook
If you look at my first thread in this forum, I was trying to connect my old NEC CRT to the netbook...
LCDs will probably never be as fast as CRT. From time to time I boot up my old PII-600 (with that CRT monitor) in Dos to replay some games. One of my favorites is "Lost Vikings" and it is really a 'candy for an eye', probably the best platformer I saw on PC... And it doesn't work on my netbook because it has 320x240x8bit mode which the Bios guys forgot to include :(
And by input lag in win32 Duke I meant something else, it isn't constant, but it's proportional to the complexity of the input from keyb and mouse, just like the events are put in some buffer. And in Dos there is nothing like that.

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[X] Don't use LFN

RayeR

CZ,
31.10.2010, 18:25

@ Misha

USB devices in DOS

Post reply

> THAT'S WHAT I would do now if I was able to switch to it from DOS on my
> netbook
> If you look at my first thread in this forum, I was trying to connect my
> old NEC CRT to the netbook...
> LCDs will probably never be as fast as CRT. From time to time I boot up my
> old PII-600 (with that CRT monitor) in Dos to replay some games. One of my
> favorites is "Lost Vikings" and it is really a 'candy for an eye', probably
> the best platformer I saw on PC... And it doesn't work on my netbook
> because it has 320x240x8bit mode which the Bios guys forgot to include :(

Uh it's mess on netbook where you cannot replace VGA. I only did some patching on nvidia bios...

> And by input lag in win32 Duke I meant something else, it isn't constant,
> but it's proportional to the complexity of the input from keyb and mouse,
> just like the events are put in some buffer. And in Dos there is nothing
> like that.

Hm, but all games are now for windows and lot of HC gamers play them and don't mention anything about input lag of controls. Only LCD lag was discused. Maybe directx can overcome this problem in windows. Maybe SDL too. So it depends how the game engine programmer did it, I'm not windows programmer so I don't know...

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.